Contract advice required

[sangie5952]

24 minutes ago, nicurro said:

Unless the meeting is being documented and a sanction imposed at which point it turns to a formal meeting.

Look up the definition of sanction. And there is nothing in law that says either of these things. You have been told what the law says. 

[nigrob]

There is a big section on ACAS about meetings.

If a Contracted term is being removed from that contract then I would say that is a sanction.

 

If the payment is being stopped then this would be ok but it would still remain as a contract term thus if criteria is met then the payment would be made.

As they are removing or have stopped recognising the contracted term then I am sure that this would be a breach.

 

I take it Sangie that you also voted to remain in the EU !

[Emmzzi]

1 hour ago, nicurro said:

There is a big section on ACAS about meetings.

If a Contracted term is being removed from that contract then I would say that is a sanction.

 

If the payment is being stopped then this would be ok but it would still remain as a contract term thus if criteria is met then the payment would be made.

As they are removing or have stopped recognising the contracted term then I am sure that this would be a breach.

 

I take it Sangie that you also voted to remain in the EU !

 

But, you do not have a copy of the relevant contract, we have established that

 

So you can theorise all you like but you've nothing that will stand up to legal scrutiny

 

All this debate on formal and informal meetings is academic without evidence.

 

My thoughts now would be

- do I want to keep working there?

- if yes, do I really want to keep stuffing up the relationship with my employer?

- if no, what's my plan and therefore what is the best way for me to leave?

 

 

 

[sangie5952]

On 04/05/2019 at 11:30, nicurro said:

There is a big section on ACAS about meetings.

If a Contracted term is being removed from that contract then I would say that is a sanction.

 

If the payment is being stopped then this would be ok but it would still remain as a contract term thus if criteria is met then the payment would be made.

As they are removing or have stopped recognising the contracted term then I am sure that this would be a breach.

 

I take it Sangie that you also voted to remain in the EU !

 

My views on an entirely irrelevant matter . But when I voted, at least I was fully aware of the issues that I was dealing with and voted accordingly - I did not go around making stuff up to suit my personal opinions. 

 

The quote you placed here did not come from ACAS, but from an ambulance chasers site, which is designed to lure in the unwary. So that claim you made was not true, as was much of what you posted earlier on and which you now say wasn't true.

 

I am wondering if, at any point, you will realise that your personal opinion does not constitute the law. Removing a shift allowance (or whatever it is called) that you are allegedly not entitled to, a possible contractual change (because if the allowance accrues to an element of work that you do not do, it isn't even a contractual change - it is a contractual affirmation) , is not a sanction. A sanction is "a threatened penalty for disobeying a law or rule"

 

You are not being threatened with a punishment for anything. It is not a penalty. It is a contractual matter only, which you may or may not be right about -although the more you say here, the more it appears that the employer may be correct and you may not be entitled to it - hence the advice to stop digging holes.

 

And since you have now decided that anything you dislike, even though you are wrong about it, deserves personally offensive remarks and insults, I wish you well of your employers. You appear to deserve each other. If they aren't "telling the truth" as you claim, then nothing to date here suggests you have any greater affinity with the truth either.

[nigrob]

Recently the same employer has agreed a new pay structure with the Union for all employees who they knew were receiving shift pay.

I/ we were missed out from this as the term shift pay had been renamed by the employer at the point of TUPE.

I merely wish for the employer to recognise that this happened and if they go through their records it will be obvious.

 

 

[Emmzzi]

24 minutes ago, nicurro said:

Recently the same employer has agreed a new pay structure with the Union for all employees who they knew were receiving shift pay.

I/ we were missed out from this as the term shift pay had been renamed by the employer at the point of TUPE.

I merely wish for the employer to recognise that this happened and if they go through their records it will be obvious.

 

 

Wait.

 

That's an entirely different matter to the one you first raised.

 

If you want ACTUAL help, you need to tell the full, honest story of what happened. No opinions and no ommissions.

 

Because you can't help an eel, it's too slippery to hold it while it tells you the truth.

[nigrob]

I am stating what has happened recently in the workplace.

[Emmzzi]

I am unable to help you because I don't have proper information with which to do so. You keep lobbing in extras and changing your story.

 

Suggest you find a non-internet lawyer to whom you can tell the whole story in confidence.

 

[BazzaS]

My opinion, based purely on my observations of OP's responses:

 

Either they are a troll, hence the "shifting sands" each time they receive a reply that answers their query (and doesn't agree with them), or they don't want advice, only validation of their pre-formed views (regardless of those views being wrong).

 

So, either way : OP you are 100% correct. Never wrong. You should go in and lay down the law with your employer, telling them exactly what you think, and why they are wrong.

 

Mind you, I'm not the one who'll have to deal with the consequences (if the situation isn't just being made up), so it doesn't matter that I'm just agreeing with the OP for the sake of it. They've already prevented 2 contributors (who have shown over time they know what they are talking about on employment law), from helping them, so how much additional harm can be caused by me taking the approach of just agreeing with the OP?

[Manxman in exile]

nic - I've read all this thread and I'm really confused (but I don't know as much about employment law as sangie and Emmzzi do).

 

Are you in a union or not?  If you are, what have they advised you about your situation (assuming you've told them the full story)?

 

In answer to your original question (and extensive exchange of posts) about a subsequent employer changing your T&Cs after TUPE, I can personally assure you that what sangie told you is correct.  I went through this some years ago when my NHS position was being transferred to a different trust (100 miles away!) and I got advice from my union (at a regional level), from my own trust's director of HR, and I also paid to get advice from a solicitor (don't worry sangie - I never sought representation from anybody - I didn't need to!) and they all told me what sangie told you.

 

It seems a great pity to me that sangie has wasted time advising you on this TUPE issue when it seems (I'm too confused by your changing story to be certain of anything) that most of what you've posted has been unreliable and inaccurate.

 

Emmzzi has had their time wasted too.  As Bazza points out above, both they and sangie really understand these aspects of employment law.

[nigrob]

Maybe they do know there way round employment law but their life is not affected by what my employer is doing.

 

Maybe some poor posts by myself contributed to the issue but I am trying to recall 17 year history with 3 employers in the same workplace.

 

I have now found the illusive contract that previously I couldn’t along with a job description from the employer before TUPE so things may start looking up.

 

Grievance delivered with pre-meeting next week.

 

nic

[Manxman in exile]

26 minutes ago, nicurro said:

Maybe they do know there way round employment law but their life is not affected by what my employer is doing.

 

Maybe some poor posts by myself contributed to the issue but I am trying to recall 17 year history with 3 employers in the same workplace.

 

I have now found the illusive contract that previously I couldn’t along with a job description from the employer before TUPE so things may start looking up.

 

Grievance delivered with pre-meeting next week.

 

nic

 

I think sangie and Emmzzi are simply trying to advise you, impartially, as to what the law is and what your legal "rights" as an employee are.  You may (or may not) quite justifiably feel hard done by and unfairly treated by your current employer, but that does not neccessarily mean that you have any legal recourse.  If, however, you are a valuable employee and asset to your employer, they may decide to accommodate you anyway.  It's impossible to say from your inconsistent account.

 

Congratulations on unearthing your old T&Cs, but as sangie has said several times, provided that your current employer adheres to the prescribed legal procedure regarding the removal of the allowance (or whatever it actually is) they can do so with or without your consent.

 

EDIT:  Good luck with a grievance...

Edited May 5, 2019 by Manxman in exile
Addition

[nigrob]

Having read the contract the actual payment that transferred was called shift pay.

There was also a criteria set for receiving the payment.

 

nic

 

[Manxman in exile]

But they can change the criteria, can't they?

[nigrob]

I expect they can but even then if the criteria was met the payment should be made.

[nigrob]

The employer didn’t change the criteria with the rest of the workforce that were paid shift pay they renegotiated with the Union.

[Manxman in exile]

Are you complaining that your employer wants to take away an allowance from you, or that they haven't been paying an allowance that is due to you, or both?

 

No wonder sangie and Emmzzi have given up!

[nigrob]

I know it sounds confusing but I will try to explain again:

Old employer who gave contract paid salary & shift pay as itemised in contract and shown on payslip as salary & shift pay.

shift pay rate was constant and increased in line with annual pay rise.

 

Then TUPE happened

 

On new payslip from new employer It showed Salary & Responsibility allowance being paid with responsibility allowance at the same value as old shift pay.

 

Asked employer why name of shift pay had changed numerous times but was offered no reason but as long as I was getting same pay they said not worry it will be right.

 

Employer had now decided to remove the responsibility allowance as they believe it is for call out, even though it was a renaming of shift pay.

 

So where has my contracted shift pay gone ?

 

How can they call something by a different name then decide it is nothing to do with what it originally was for ?

 

Or make a story fit if they have lost my contract and they don’t know what it is for.

 

This all makes me believe that Employer has lost my Contract of Employment.

 

This is affecting at least 3 people in the department not just me.

Their are other workers in department that also have issues and grievances lodged with employer relating to lower pay for same job.

 

The Union have yet to be involved with the matter.

No final decision letters have been received up to now and the decision was made 7 days ago.

 

Hope this helps.

 

nic

 

 

 

 

 

[Manxman in exile]

Irrespective of what the allowance was called, were you paid the correct amount of money since TUPE?

 

If "Yes" I don't see what you can do.  And your employer can change your T&Cs unilaterally, provided they follow the correct procedure.

 

(Adding to my confusion because you haven't explained, were you working shifts for the shift allowance?  And did you undertake extra duties for the Responsibility allowance?  I suppose it doesn't matter, as they can just cease paying it, whatever "it" is.)

[nigrob]

Yes they can stop paying it but they can’t change my contract without discussion and agreement as I understand.

 

The contracts were negotiated via the Union , the rest of the workforce had a negotiated change to their Contracts due to the shift pay element.

 

Our shift pay element has been renamed in error and it is now being classed as something that it isn’t to help settle complaints by other workers.

 

All I ask is that the shift pay element is still recognised as shift pay.

[Manxman in exile]

You're banging your head against a brick wall - they can change your contract without your agreement.

 

Good luck - you'll need it!

[Emmzzi]

On 03/05/2019 at 21:17, nicurro said:

 

There were also at least 3 occasions where HR had said that they would have to stop my shift allowance as I no longer worked the required shift pattern,

 

 

Seems cut and dried to me. You don't do call outs and you don't do shifts. No allowance due.

[ericsbrother]

another thing, it seems to be part of a negotiated agreement so ask the union reps about any subsequent agreed changes.

Also let them fight it out regarding the other groups who are complaining and dont get involved or even discuss the matter with your work colleagues.

 Your union may well be able to create a condition that allows you to keep the payment for a limited time and then have it absorbed into normal pay or reconfigured into a retainer of some sort should you be required to take on extra duties or do shift work. Used to happen wfor people having a ( for example) safety role where being voluntary the employer couldnt actually pay the people to do it as part of their salary.

Book allowances for further or continuous  training is another payment I have seen, essential bicycle use payment one to pacify people who lose their car parking space to the builders.

There are ways and means if both sides are willing to go beyond the obvious. You need to speak to your union rep and see if things like the above can be used, especially if they have a pressing H&S matter to deal with that is totally separate from any wages dispute but might just get sorted at the same time by coincidence