ParkingEye ANPR PCN Lease Van - Wigmore Park District Centre, Luton

[harni]

For PCN's received through the post [ANPR camera capture]

 

please answer the following questions.

 

1 Date of the infringement - 12/03/2019

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] - Unknown. Vehicle is leased and lease company havent supplied the NTK

 

3 Date received 21/03/2019 (letter from lease company)

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?] NA

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes, pic entering and exiting the car park

 

6 Have you appealed? [Y/N?] post up your appeal] - Not yet

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up NA

 

7 Who is the parking company? Parking Eye

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Wigmore park District Centre, Luton

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under.

 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure,

please check HERE

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here

 

Hi All,

We have received a PCN via ANPR on one of the vans we lease. This has gone via the lease company so first we knew about it was when a letter turned up with them.

The reason for charge was that the maximum allowed time on site was 2 hours and the driver was on site for 2:45. Firstly, i need to remove this from the hands of the lease company otherwise they will just pay it. Secondly, i need to appeal to Parking Eye. I am aware they like to think they are the big boys in the industry so could anyone please advise the best way to approach this?

[dx100uk]

reply to PE tell them you were the driver

[lookinforinfo]

Whatever you do apart from saying you were the driver to PE, do not even think of paying them.

 

tell the lease company that you have taken over the ticket and so they are no longer involved.

Please obtain the Notice to Keeper from the lease company and post it up here so we can see where PE has gone wrong.

 

Also can you obtain photos of the signs in the car park especially the one at the entrance followed by the other signs making sure you get the ones that are worded differently from the others.

If there is a ticket machine then get the terms on there as well. 

 

 

Also check with the local Council to see if they have permission to erect signs and ANPR cameras on site-they often don't which means their signs are there illegally- not unlawfully, but illegally-big difference.

[ericsbrother]

company or personal lease?

When a parking contract si offered it is offered to an individual so PE cnat claim that the compnay ow3es money. You cant name the driver due to data protection so they cant make a valid claim against you just because you signed the lease on behalf of the company.

Parking co's will claim ignorance of this aspect of the law and demand that you are liable. There are previous cases that cna be referred to that mostly go in favour of the defendant but you have to be careful how you respond to PE as it is also possible to create a liability by way of agency-ie you say you sent the driver there then the driver is just obeying your explicit instructions.

Now why was the driver at the site? it may be easier to get your  customer to get on the the landowner and get the vehicle put on a whitelist if they were there on business.

Give us as much info as you can so we can look at all of the permutations. I cnat see you needing to pay and certainly if the lease copays on your behalf you should be demanding the money back

[harni]

So, its a company lease but i am the business owner. That said, it is a pool vehicle and multiple people have the use of it

The driver was on site because he was doing some works for a client on the site. Unfortunately though we have no way of using them to help us as they have moved out now (hence why we were there). 

 

I am not in a position to name the driver as this goes against our data protection policies. I just want to make sure that its removed from the lease companies hands and put into mine so i can "manage it" going forwards

 

Do i appeal it now as the leasee or do i ask them to send the NTK to me as the person responsible for the vehicle and then handle it?

[dx100uk]

name yourself as the driver.

doesn't mean you've gotta pay it!

 

1001 ways to circumvent these unenforceable speculative invoices

 

dx

[Mrs O'Frog]

I would tell PE that your company was the hirer at the time and that all correspondence should be directed to "ABC Removals Ltd" or "J Bloggs Decorators" etc as appropriate.

 

Let your lease company know that you have contacted PE and are dealing with it. Check your lease agreement anyway, often they refer to Parking Penalties for charging you admin fees. This is a Parking Charge Notice (it's not a fine or penalty), if it's not included on their list, they have no right to charge you admin fees. Might as well point that out to them at the same time.

 

PE will fail to meet the requirements of POFA2012 when they send you the NtH/NtK. They WILL miss sending you the additional documents required to transfer liability from the driver to the keeper. As it's a corporate body they will more than likely claim law of agency though, so not try to rely on POFA. Get your ducks in a row now, get photos of signs etc. Let's see where they have tripped up.

[ericsbrother]

limited company or what? come on  and help us here,  the law protects you as an individual and a company isnt agreeing to a contract with PE as the diver is the one agreeing the deal and you cant name them.

why were they there was also asked of you. Just shopping for groceries or business?

When we know what we are dealing with we can advise but until then do not appeal or contact PE

[harni]

Sorry for the late reply. Manic few days

 

So, i have informed them i was the driver as per previous advice in this thread. As of yet i have not received a response. 

 

To answer a few question;

Im not in a position to get pics of the signs as its a area we wouldn't normally go to. Its ages way

 

Yes, the company is a limited company. The official hirer of the vehicle is the company. We were there on business purposes

 

thanks all

[ericsbrother]

then you should have informed them you were the driver as there was no liability as company isnt a person.

 

Can you please come here and tell us what you intend to do before you do it as you have obviously misunderstood what I wrote about a comany not having any liability and also not being abe to tell parking co who was driving under data protection legislation.

 

the laST LINE WAS CLEAR THOUGH, DO NOT APPEAL OR CONTACT PE

[harni]

Ive obviously misunderstood the previous messages.

To confirm, i have told them i was the driver and thats it

 

Today the letter from them has landed on my doorstep.

 

What is the best way to tackle this moving forwards?

 

 

IMG_2727.pdf IMG_2726.pdf

[Mrs O'Frog]

Is this the spot? https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8881716,-0.3726284,3a,40.3y,81.72h,83.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stlLUHKMkcOw_SunO8z8Mjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

If so, can you try to identify where you were parked? Do they have any other photos?

[harni]

 

Thats exactly it. If you’re in streetview you will see a Grey BMW. That’s where I was parked. 

 

They are the only photos they they have provided. 

[Mrs O'Frog]

It's 2 or 3 big car parks. Can you copy a link of the view of the actual spot to save me trawling round trying to find which of the (50 shades of) grey cars this one is?

 

More than anything trying to see which cameras & signs you will have passed and any possible routes to goods yards etc that they won't have captured.

[harni]

See attached image, red square is where the vehicle was parked.

 

We drove in off of the main roundabout which is the only entrance in or out.

 

As you come off the second roundabout into the car park there is a sign mounted to a lamp post off to your left with the ANPR cameras mounted above.

 

car parks map.pdf

[Mrs O'Frog]

I don't think there's a back entrance to a goods yard or anything so I can't see a "just passing through" argument holding water.

 

There are, however, a couple of things I can pick up from their signs, although they're pretty hard to read. A good clear photo would be brilliant if you can get one somehow?

1) Entering from the public road there's no mention of £100 parking charge.

2) They state that the parking is "2 hour max stay, for use only whilst shopping on site". Now they've left themselves a bit open there since as a consumer you are entitled to read that in whichever way is most advantageous to you. You could clearly argue that as you were working and not shopping, the 2 hour rule doesn't apply to you. If they state that non-shoppers are not allowed parking at all, then the sign is prohibitive and you could not enter into a contract to park. 

 

The main one that may finish them off is to see if they have planning permission for their signs and the ANPR cameras. Check with local planning, not just for permission but check the full text. If consent has been given, there may be a different parking period stipulated. Not unknown for them to get permission for a 3 hour stay then put signs up and enforce it as a 90 minute stay.

 

 

[ericsbrother]

I agree with Mrs Ofrog, if you werent a customer then the terms dont appy and the laws of trespass do. Trespass has nowt to do with PE as they arent the landowner so they cnat sue you for the damage caused by your vehicle you their tarmac and the landowner isnt going to try and recover the 0.0001p for wear and tear that they are entitled to.

Ask the council about the planning permission for cameras and signs, you need to get the location exactly right to avoid errors

[harni]

I have done some digging on this and found something quite interesting.

 

Whilst they have planning consent for all of their signage and ANPR equipment, the consent for the signage was only sought for the period of 14/4/16 to 14/4/18 and there has been no further applications since!

 

Now, please correct me if i'm wrong but that now suggests to me that they do not have planning permission for their signage?

[honeybee13]

Good spot, harni. I expect people will be along to comment later on. Parking companies often let PP lapse, it can be a good way of catching them out.

 

HB

[dx100uk]

opps that should blow their chances out the water then.

I wonder if its best now to just simply waitand see if they get a solicitor to issue a letter of claim??

 

[ericsbrother]

exactly right, this limit is soemthing judges understand much better than contracts with open ended but unproven terms. All useful stuff and PP is not retrospective for contract forming purposes

[harni]

So as expected, PE have declined my appeal and have provided me with a POPLA code so i now need to appeal to them. I assume my strongest route is going to be the evidence on the lack of planning permission for signage? In which case, does anyone have an example i could see to work out how im going to structure this?

[ericsbrother]

no, POPLA NEVER consider that,

if they did no parking co would ever win an appeal and that would put POPLA out of commission.

 

You are better off waiting to see what PE want to do and then send them a snotty rebuttal when they send out a lba.

I know this isnt the answer you would have liked but that is the reality

[harni]

So just to confirm,

just ignore all corespondance until the LBA comes through the door?

I always thought PE were very agresive with issuing court papers?

[dx100uk]

await the LBA

so what if they do issue a claim

they've zero planning permission.