CWD Court Docs

[ConcernedExpat09]

Does this mean only return Acknowledgement of Service? Or also complete the Defence form?

[AndyOrch]

Just the AOS ......you have 33 days in total ...19 days from and including the date on the claim form (or from when deemed served) and a further 14 days to submit a defence....33 days..assuming your not contesting jurisdiction

[ConcernedExpat09]

Thanks Andy. So confusing

[ConcernedExpat09]

Evening all,

 

I have a strong defence on this and I am not disclosing it here as I know the lawyers will want to try to quash it but I confident.

 

However I have been advised by a member here to file the N244 now - In fairness I don't have £255 to do so so I am a bit aggrieved to do so. Can I send just the AOS now re: jurisdiction? The N244 is a setting aside request - yet no judgment has been set yet as obviously I have only been served the notice.

 

Please advise? Particularly Hornsey62 and Squaddie

[ConcernedExpat09]

Hi all,

 

Spoke to the Courts this morning - OK:

 

So with regards to contesting Jurisdiction:

Jurisdiction isn't whether they are they and I am here. Its all down to am I here - i.e Am in England/Wales and governed by the laws here. 

 

With regards to the defence I have until the 26th to Submit the defence and courts say that contesting Jurisdiction often clouds defence as its the first thing to be investigated and the clerk pointed out they do have jurisdiction to claim against me as I live in England.

 

He also pointed out the N244 is not applicable at this stage as No Judgement has been made against me at this time and this is the initial filing. 

Defence can be returned either today or by 26th April. I will file this next week as I want more time to compile but will file the AOS today. 

 

Thanks for everyones help so far. I am going to need help with the defence lines - but I've been told I am not allowed to Direct message anyone about it so I guess I may as well just tell the claimant all my defence!!  

 

 

[dx100uk]

so a court clerk is a judge now..urm...

[ConcernedExpat09]

1 hour ago, Andyorch said:

And I stand by all that advice as that is the correct procedure to contest the courts jurisdiction to hear and deal with the claim.You had to have a hearing because the claimants challenged your application.....that has never happened before on this forum... normally would not require a hearing....they simply drop the claim.

 

You do not submit evidence or a defence in an application to contest the courts jurisdiction as by doing so you are submitting to the courts jurisdiction and accepting that the court does have jurisdiction.That is why the court has now ordered you submit a defence because the question of Jurisdiction has been accepted by the court.It does not mean that you have submitted to the courts jurisdiction.

 

I did advise you to raise points such as had the claimant requested permission to serve out of jurisdiction. The English Court should not exercise its jurisdiction if there is a more appropriate forum (known as the doctrine of "forum non conveniens") and Another gateway is where the dispute relates to a contract which is governed by English law or contains a term conferring jurisdiction on the English Courts to determine any claim in respect of the contract.

 

Did the agreement refer to Exclusive or None exclusive jurisdiction clauses limit disputes to the courts of one jurisdiction.

 

It is noted that yours refers at 11.13

 

" These terms and conditions are governed by the laws of the Emirate of Dubai and the UAE.You and we submit to the none exclusive jurisdiction of the civil courts of the UAE.Such submission shall not restrict our rights to bring in any other jurisdiction.

 

Further reading.....

 

http://disputeresolutionblog.practicallaw.com/taking-steps-without-submitting-to-the-jurisdiction-how-far-can-you-go/

https://www.ashurst.com/en/news-and-insights/legal-updates/jurisdiction-clauses/

http://www.shlegal.com/insights/when-will-the-english-courts-have-jurisdiction-over-a-dispute

https://www.latham.london/2019/01/english-court-of-appeal-clarifies-test-for-determining-jurisdictional-challenges/

 

 

So according to this by challenging the Jurisdiction with the Non-Exclusive clause they have included - meaning they can challenge elsewhere but only if no other challenge has been made previously - Then it proves they haven't put this through the UAE judicial system meaning then by default they can't represent or claim for it here?

[AndyOrch]

He also pointed out the N244 is not applicable at this stage as No Judgement has been made against me at this time and this is the initial filing. 

 

So he too also does not understand the process and how to use CPR 11 and that an an application notice is only used to set a side judgment..not to request an Order or a Direction or its many other uses.

 

He does not  recommend you to contest jurisdiction as it " clouds defence " ?????????  and you agree thats it right and correct for a UAE credit claim be submitted against you and tried in an English Court.

 

You do not have to contest jurisdiction its your choice,,,but once you AOS and submit a defence it is deemed that you submit to jurisdiction and accept the claim.

 

Finally I did not state you are not allowed to Direct Message..I did advise you do not direct message for advice as advice given by PM is not open to question and clarification by other members..as its on a one to one basis with no validation its correct.

 

And no you dont need to "  tell the claimant all my defence!!  "  Simply post it here to your thread which is right as everything should be on your own thread as a PDF attachment ..only members can then read its contents.

 

Andy

[ConcernedExpat09]

8 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

so a court clerk is a judge now..urm...

No I get that - but I no one has clear answers on this as I guess we are all in the dark.

 

I agree the Jurisdiction thing is not right but the law is open to all interpretations.

[AndyOrch]

Well along those lines yes and also more importantly the question of The English Court should not exercise its jurisdiction if there is a more appropriate forum (known as the doctrine of "forum non conveniens") 

[ConcernedExpat09]

2 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

He also pointed out the N244 is not applicable at this stage as No Judgement has been made against me at this time and this is the initial filing. 

 

So he too also does not understand the process and how to use CPR 11 and that an an application notice is only used to set a side judgment..not to request an Order or a Direction or its many other uses.

 

He does not  recommend you to contest jurisdiction as it " clouds defence " ?????????  and you agree thats it right and correct for a UAE credit claim be submitted against you and tried in an English Court.

 

You do not have to contest jurisdiction its your choice,,,but once you AOS and submit a defence it is deemed that you submit to jurisdiction and accept the claim.

 

Finally I did not state you are not allowed to Direct Message..I did advise you do not direct message for advice as advice given by PM is not open to question and clarification by other members..as its on a one to one basis with no validation its correct.

 

And no you dont need to "  tell the claimant all my defence!!  "  Simply post it here to your thread which is right as everything should be on your own thread as a PDF attachment ..only members can then read its contents.

 

Andy

 Ok but now on the basis of the AOS you again contradict yourself Andy,

 

If I tick the Jurisdiction Box and don't click to Defend are you saying I need to do the N244? The N244 is applicable only against judgement yet no judgement made? 

 

I really appreciate you are trying to help but the point of the CAG site is surely to help people on Layman's terms? 

 

Now I have one fully trashed AOS form with boxes ticked and crossed out and same all over again.

[ConcernedExpat09]

3 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

Well along those lines yes and also more importantly the question of The English Court should not exercise its jurisdiction if there is a more appropriate forum (known as the doctrine of "forum non conveniens") 

OK thank you for this - and the only way to support the Jurisdiction claim is to file the N244? Or will I get an initial hearing outlining this and I go and defend against the Jurisdiction? 

[AndyOrch]

If you read CPR 11 its explains what steps you take if you are contesting jurisdiction....you can tick defend all if you wish...but its not referred to in CPR 11.....only to complete the acknowledgment of service and tick I contest Jurisdiction....and submit an n244 within 14 days of acknowledgment.

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part11

 

(9) If a defendant makes an application under this rule, he must file and serve his written evidence in support with the application notice, but he need not before the hearing of the application file –

[AndyOrch]

The process to contest jurisdiction is to AoS and submit an application n244 within 14 days of acknowledging..you can do it at the same time if you have it all ready and completed.

There will be an hearing if the claimant opposes the application to decide and allow you to present your reasons for challenging jurisdiction.

 

Try not to use words such as " defend  against the Jurisdiction " you cant defend it you can oppose it and ask the court to decide..but ultimately its the Judges decision and if the judge disagrees with your application the claim proceeds....IE you then submit your defence.

[AndyOrch]

Posts moved to your own thread

[ConcernedExpat09]

I'm submitting the AOS now - ticked both boxes. 

Defend and Contest 

 

Will submit either N244 or Defence within the 14 days between 12th and 26th.

Interesting issues around the total amount - docs not signed - and now your Non-Exclusive reasoning plus a gem of info I won't put here about how the loan and cards were obtained that representatives of the claimant and even the claimant won't necessarily be aware of.

 

I'm hoping this is the case that will help burn them.

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Must be an N244 Application Notice if your contesting jurisdiction as per the process explained...if your not then yes submit a defence as normal.

[ConcernedExpat09]

13 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

Must be an N244 Application Notice if your contesting jurisdiction as per the process explained...if your not then yes submit a defence as normal.

Thanks Andy - but ok to tick both boxes now and will have the 14 days to send N244 and/or defence across? This gives me time to consult with the forum and get all completed correctly. Right now I am agains the clock to get this AOS back in time for Friday 

[AndyOrch]

Yes  within 14 days either way

[ConcernedExpat09]

Just now, Andyorch said:

Yes  within 14 days either way

Andy I don't know if you do it to wind people up on here - but thats a perfect example of how you aren't clear.

 

Yes or No. Simple.

 

Do I tick both boxes.

 

Defend all of claim 

and

Contest Jurisdiction.

 

[AndyOrch]

Yes either way depending on whether you are contesting jurisdiction or if not and just submitting a defence ...its within 14 days.

 

Tick Contest Jurisdiction

 

You can tick Defend all (incase you decide not to contest jurisdiction)

 

You then have a further 14 days to either submit an N244 application or send a defence as normal

 

Strange how Hornsey and Squaddy got it within one post 

[ConcernedExpat09]

15 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

Yes either way depending on whether you are contesting jurisdiction or if not and just submitting a defence ...its within 14 days.

 

Strange how Hornsey and Squaddy got it within one post 

Because neither of them asked about ticking both boxes. 

 

Perhaps if this was happening to you you would understand the pressures we are actually facing. 

Equally both squaddie and Hornsey62 that you 'advised', lost their Jurisdiction challenges.

 

Hence I am making sure all correct. 

 

[AndyOrch]

Neither Hornsey or Squaddy were in two minds and undecided...they were simply contesting jurisdiction with no intention of defending or submitting a defence.

They and we assumed the court would rule in their favour.

 

Your covering both bases by ticking both boxes in case you change your mind.

[ConcernedExpat09]

OK so it is acceptable to tick both boxes as Hornsey62 saying you can't tick both as then accepting Jurisdiction?

 

 

[AndyOrch]

Yes its okay to tick both boxes in your particular scenario...in case you change your mind and dont contest Jurisdiction.The courts will ignore contest jurisdiction until they actually receive your application....and if you dont submit an application and just submit a defence then it proceeds as a normal defended claim.