CP PLUS ANPR PCN - surrey Quays shopping centre

[Yarnus]

Hello 

I have this morning received a Charge Notice issued by CP Plus. 

 

I have spent most of the morning reading a number of posts on here to try and see if I can respond/deal with this myself without asking for advice. However it seems that each case might be slightly different so rather than risk getting it wrong I thought I would ask directly. 

 

I have attached a PDF of the notice I received which related to my vehicle being parked for a period of what I think was 50 minutes over the maximum time of 4 hours. 

 

The car was parked on the 11/03/19 and the CN was issued on the 22/03/19 but has only today been received. 

 

I also note that the images on the CN show the vehicle and its numberplate clearly on one with an additional image of the front numberplate, however on the second picture of the rear of the vehicle it's not clear at all and they have shown below this a front numberplate which looks altered as the letters are much bolder. Not sure if this is something which could be used against them but it looks somewhat fake. 

 

As with other posts they are writing to me as the registered keeper asking for the driver of the vehicle. 

 

Any and all help/advice is gratefully received as I am currently out of work and don't have the financial means to pay this nor the energy to get dragged in to a long and protracted argument by letter. 

 

Thanks in advance 

Scan 1.pdf

Edited March 27, 2019 by Yarnus
spelling error

[Mrs O'Frog]

They haven't mentioned POFA 2012 on the front of the letter, it may be on the back, let's see it, but nonetheless  there are lots of fails on the front so they will not be able to transfer any alleged liability for a charge from the driver at the time to the registered keeper. Bear in mind that millions of people can drive your car with your consent, (my comprehensive cover includes 3rd party cover of other vehicles) so as long as nobody shoots themselves in the foot by saying "I parked" or similar, then they have no idea who drove.

 

In the absence of knowing who drove they can transfer liability to the RK if (and only if) they get everything right by POFA 2012. As said above, they haven't got it right, so they will fail. This won't stop them trying though. They will write and write, get debt collectors to write etc, tell you lie after lie, all hoping you'll get scared, cave in and pay. These letters WILL NOT affect your credit file. If they ever send a letter before claim or letter before action from either themselves or a solicitor then come back here. It's only at that point you need to respond and that's when Ericsbrother will give you a lovely reply for them

 

In the meantime there are some things you can do.

1) As this was a shopping centre, go and complain to the MANAGERS of any stores that you purchased goods in. Ask them to INSTRUCT CP Plus to cancel. Do they want your continued custom? (They may or may not directly be able to, put they can complain up the food chain to their landlord if it's not their car park)

2) While you're there complaining get photos of signs in and around and at the entrance to the car park. There may be something in the wording that we can pull a hole in too.

[Yarnus]

Thank you for the quick reply on this. 

 

Attached is the reverse of the CN. 

 

With regards to the shopping centre, it's not local to me and I am not likely to be up there again very soon. I did look on google to see if I could spot the signs, there is one on the entrance saying that you need to look at the signs but googles little car didn't go in to the carpark because, I assume, it's private property and they aren't authorised to take pictures. 

 

I could write to them giving the impression that I am a regular visitor there. 

 

Thank you again for the quick reply and the advice thus far 

 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

I'm afraid I've had to remove your pdf because you've left your car reg and ticket number on the payment slip. Please edit out any personal details that could identify you and post it up again.

 

HB

[Yarnus]

Thanks HB 

 

Please see new scan of the reverse of the letter removing details as advised. 

CPP CN BP.pdf

[honeybee13]

Thank you, that looks better to me.

 

HB

[Mrs O'Frog]

They don't even quote POFA 2012 there either where I can see. Front has gone now and I can't remember all the "misses" but you can find them for yourself. Here's a link to the act POFA 2012 look down to section 9 - that's the bit that covers ANPR capture - go through it with a fine toothed comb and remember, "nearly" is not good enough when it comes to how they word it, what details they include and when they do it.

 

Do you have friends/family in the area that you can persuade to nip down to grab the photos for you? The more rocks you have to throw at them when the time comes, the better. Do you have any receipts from the stores, if so which one(s)? Some firms are better than others, we may be able to guide you where to concentrate your best efforts.

[ericsbrother]

all I can see on the charge notice is the back, you ned to repost so the  front is visible.

what we wnat is to see the date, the times, the date of issue and what they say you have done wrong to cause you to owe them money. Then they must use certain key phrases to create a liability for the charge under the POFA. If they get the wording wrog then they are stuffed

paraphrasing their words wont do,  we need to see everything apart from your personal details, the car reg and any reference number, bar code and qr code they may use.

It is common for some arking co's to abuse the date of issue in this way, is there anything on the envelope that indicates the date of posting such as a dated franking mark?

 

do not eve condier responding until,we get to the botton of what they are claiming and whether they have got their paperwork right

[Yarnus]

Thanks ericsbrother and Mrs O'Frog 

 

I have re attached the front of the CN below. I also checked the envelope, there is no postage mark indicating the date it was sent out. 

 

I will look at whether I am able to get a photograph of the signs displayed in the car park. I do know that looking at google street car images there doesn't appear to be any in the vicinity to where I parked. I made a small purchase while in the shopping centre but this was paid with cash and I am pretty sure I don't have the receipt  

 

I won't respond until advised. 

 

Thank you again 

CPP CN FP.pdf

[Mrs O'Frog]

They have a "date of notice" which I think you said was 22nd, but no date of "posting", "sending" or "given". Even if we accept that they immediately posted it on 22nd, with 2 working days that would make it deemed as given on 26th, outside of the 14 days. They do not claim that they are going to even try to hold the RK liable, there is no mention POFA etc, they merely state that the driver is required to pay the charge. All of this would indicate to me that they know they have failed to meet the requirements of POFA so are writing to you in the vain hope that you'll just cough up.

 

Note their wording "The driver of this vehicle is required to pay this parking charge....you should provide us with the name and current postal address of the driver..." There is absolutely no legal requirement for you to name the driver. Ignore them and let them go fish.

[ericsbrother]

they claim to give you 14 days for the discount period and that makes the date of issue the 22nd. the 12 days they have to issue the demand starts the day after the date of the event so they have until the 26th to get it into your hands. now the problem is you have to prove it arrived late as there is what is called "deemed service".

 

However, that doesnt change the contents and they are utter rubbish as far as the requirements of a notice to keeper goes for the POFA. This means that they have failed to create any liability whatsoever let alone keeper liability.

 

The bad news is that being thick wont stop them from continuing to harass you for money . I would suggest that you file tbhis away  and do the same with the next load  of piffle you get from them and the rentathreats they will use to try and convince you they ahve some legitimate reason for their behaviour.

 

the reality is you can sue them for breach of the GDPR but most peopel dont do this as it is bad enough getting them off your back in the first place.

 

You mention the signage at the entrance, that is another loss for them as any sign that refers to another sign isnt a contract but an invitation to treat and so invites you to park and then consider what else they have to say (free food- who knows?). You dont have to accept the free food ( standard offer and consideration) so you cant be bound to this new offer because it is on top of the one you have accepted (come in!). All GCSE level law so who on earth do they employ to write their drivel.

 

so sit tight and keep us informed of the next instalment. If you can get someone to get pictures of the signage there we would be grateful but no hurry.

[Yarnus]

Thanks again to you both ericsbrother and Mrs O'Frog

 

I have, through the power of google found the below image which was taken in November 2018. 

 

Just to be 100% clear from your last posts I should essentially just ignore any correspondence from them at this stage, unless the attached photo throws anything you've already said in to question? 

 

Quickly reading through the sign it does say that they will contact the DVLA to trace the registered keeper, which they have done, and to issue a parking charge, again which they have done. However this only states its for the driver and not the registered keeper. My further understanding is that I am not obliged to give them the details of the driver of the vehicle at the time. 

 

Thank you for your continued help and advice 

[ericsbrother]

"use the car park for any other reason than shopping inside Surrey Quays". No, that is what you go into the shops for, you use the car park for parking because your car wont fit into the shop.

Their use of a PO Box number rather than a proper address makes it difficult to agree a contract with them as you dont know who is offering you terms.

 

In their NTK they say an initial recovery charge of £40 will be payable- Not legally chargeable but they all try it on because most people read this and think that the bill will go up and up until they lose their house. That is what they want you to think. The POFA slaps this down

so they ahve a choice,  create a keeper liabilty and collect the right amount of money or break the law and risk being sued for breach of the GDPR. they gamble you dont know about that or arent wanting to go to the trouble. Possibly somehting to remind them of when they threaten to sue

[Mrs O'Frog]

I've just had my shoes and socks off to double-check those dates and make the ntk delivered too late. Check if I'm having a senior moment for me please 

Day 0 (the date of the heinous crime! - not) = 11th

Day 11 (the date of notice - which may or may not be the date of posting) = 22nd

Day 12 = Saturday 23rd

Day 13 = Sunday 24th

Day 14 = (notice + 1 working day) 25th

Day 15 = (notice + 2 days, deemed served) 26th

 

Not a silver bullet, but a bit more ammo for the scattergun.

 

[ericsbrother]

day 0 is the day AFTER the event, this is done so parking co's that clobber people in the middle of the night dont ahve to get up early to file their demands. It was common for 1 parking co to put an earlier date on their NTK's to fit in with the legal requirements but got caught out by the fact they hadnt applied ot the DVLA by the time they had supposedly issued the NTK.

Anything that can cast a doubt in the mond of a judge is always ueseful

[Mrs O'Frog]

Ah, cheers EB. At least it's not my maths failing me. It's still not how I would read this part of the Act though, so still a bit confused.

 

(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

[Yarnus]

Hi Mrs O'Frog and EB

 

Sorry for not responding to your posts I was away and wasn't able to respond properly. 

 

I still haven't taken any action in terms of writing to CP Plus as per your advice, as today is the 3rd and their deadline is the 4th should I put something in the post to them today, recorded delivery, to say that whilst I am the registered keeper I am under no obligation to divulge the name and address of the driver of the vehicle on the date stated on their charge notice. 

 

Or should I, as you have suggested in your post on Thursday sit tight and do nothing?

 

Many thanks 

[Mrs O'Frog]

Just wait. Their deadlines are meaningless. Writing will achieve nothing as they will reject and continue to harass you anyway, but they'll know they have a fish that's taken the bait. Save yourself a stamp and let them waste their money on letters.

 

Get those photos as soon as you can, so that they are current and not a newer version in case they correct any errors. Put them in a folder with everything else you have and keep it safe - for 6 years. Expect to receive lots of letters, including debt collector letters, which can be filed and ignored unless they ever send you a Letter before Action, when you should come back here for more advice.

[Yarnus]

Hi again Mrs O'Frog and EB

 

Earlier this week I received a nice reminder from CP Plus, see attached. Nothing new here except notification that my 14 day period is up, although according to letter 1 this was the 5th April and they have only chosen to write to me on the 8th April! Probably not significant. 

 

I am still working on getting up to date photos of the signage at the parking location. I will upload these once I have them. 

 

Thank you 

CPPlus reminder BP.pdf CPPlus reminder FP.pdf

[ericsbrother]

well, they have just wasted another 80p of the money thet got from someone else who was frightened enough to pay up

[Yarnus]

UPDATE

 

2 days ago I received another notice from them. This one is Legal Action Pending....

 

As per the last correspondence I don't see that anything has changed but of course would appreciate others more honed eyes looking over it and their thoughts. 

 

Should I engage with them and write advising that I was not the driver of the vehicle at the time nor am I under any legal obligation to divulge the name of the driver. As this is not a penalty charge issued to the owner and I am not willing to given them the name they should cease all further correspondence with me. 

 

Any and all advice gratefully received 

 

Thanks 

CP Plus legal action pending BP.pdf CP Plus legal action pending FP.pdf

[dx100uk]

ignore until or unless one of the fake/tame paper only solicitors writes a letter entitled 'letter of claim'

 

dx