bus lane PCN - now bailiffs back after failed appeal - help! £30 now +£400

[Bailiff Advice]

12 hours ago, sunnytoday said:

These are my new reasons, if you care to help/advise further:

 

1 - I did not receive the enforcement notice for the original contravention as it went to my previous address (address and moving date included)

 

2 - The warrant of control had my previous address and an enforcement agent took an enforcement step without the authority requesting the issue of a new warrant specifying the new address of the respondent under CPR 75.7(7).

3 - I was not given the NOE from the enforcement agent under the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 s.8(1) as this was sent to my previous address.

If it is the case that you will be required to pay the court fee (of £100), then my personal opinion is that you would be wasting your money but that must be your choice. I would also caution you against using the above 'new reasons'. 

 

You did not receive any of the notices from the council and this is simply because you had failed to update your V5C (Log Book) when you moved. An exceptionally common situation indeed.

 

What you should have been saying on your OOT is that you acted responsibly by updating your driving licence when you moved but that with regards to your V5C (Log Book), you genuinely thought that  updating of the licence meant that your V5C had also been updated and that you realise now that this had been an mistake on your part.

 

With regards to item number 2 of your 'new reasons', who informed you that an application had not been made to  amend the address on the warrant? What evidence do you have to support this?

 

[sunnytoday]

It's £100 and a chance to pay £30 or £408 and just roll over and die. I feel like I have to take this chance, not just for the money but for justice too.

 

Warrant of control - bailiffs told me they visited my old address as per DVLA records. Should I get this in writing?

I will take your advice on telling them I updated the driving licence, thank you.

[Bailiff Advice]

16 minutes ago, sunnytoday said:

 

Warrant of control - bailiffs told me they visited my old address as per DVLA records.

 

 

 

And this why you need to think carefully about what you put on your N244 application.  Item number 2 of your 'new reasons' state this:

 

"The warrant of control had my previous address and an enforcement agent took an enforcement step without the authority requesting the issue of a new warrant specifying the new address of the respondent under CPR 75.7(7)"

 

You are making a serious claim here that the enforcement agent had NOT requested a NEW warrant. This is entirely different from the bailiff VISITING your old address. How do you know that a NEW warrant had not been requested? What EVIDENCE do you have to support this statement?

 

 

[Ethel Street]

17 minutes ago, sunnytoday said:

It's £100 and a chance to pay £30 or £408 and just roll over and die. I feel like I have to take this chance, 

 

Yes but the chances of £30 being the outcome and the chance of £408 being the outcome are not equal, or anything near equal.

 

The experts here (I'm not one!) seem to be clear that you have very little chance of ending up paying £130 (the £30 + £100 fee) and a very high chance of paying £508 (the £408 + £100 fee). 

[sunnytoday]

Quote

You are making a serious claim here that the enforcement agent had NOT requested a NEW warrant. This is entirely different from the bailiff VISITING your old address. How do you know that a NEW warrant had not been requested? What EVIDENCE do you have to support this statement?

 

If I get them to say in writing that they attended my old address, is that not enough?

I can remove this point I guess, I will speak to Citizens Advice, thanks for highlighting it.

1 minute ago, Ethel Street said:

 

Yes but the chances of £30 being the outcome and the chance of £408 being the outcome are not equal, or anything near equal.

 

The experts here (I'm not one!) seem to be clear that you have very little chance of ending up paying £130 (the £30 + £100 fee) and a very high chance of paying £508 (the £408 + £100 fee). 

Yes, I accept that, and if that's the risk I decide to take, then it's on me.

I will update on the developments.

[Bailiff Advice]

4 hours ago, sunnytoday said:

Warrant of control - bailiffs told me they visited my old address as per DVLA records. Should I get this in writing?

I will take your advice on telling them I updated the driving licence, thank you.

 

Before taking any further steps (and very likely wasting £100) you need to understand what a Witness Statement is and more importantly; what an Out of Time Witness Statement is:

 

If you have a Penalty  Charge Notice, Dart Charge, Merseyflow etc, then on receipt of the Order for Recovery you are given 21 days to file a Witness Statement (or Statutory Declaration) to request that the debt be cancelled. There are only a few grounds on which such an application can be made. The most  usual one being that you had not received the Penalty  Charge Notice. There can be  many reasons for this (such as being overseas, in hospital, temporarily away from home etc). The most common reason though is because notices  had been sent to a previous address.

 

The less common reasons are outlined on the Statutory Declaration (Form PE3).  As long as the Witness Statement is submitted within 21 days, the debt will automatically be cancelled and the local authority (Dart Charge or Merseyflow) will 'rewind' the procedure and issue a new Penalty Charge. It is that simple. You will then be able to pay at the earlier discounted rate. 

 

If  you only became aware of the Penalty Charge  Notice etc  when contacted by a bailiff, then the law provides that you must still be given the opportunity to file a Witness Statement (or Statutory Declaration). However, because the 21 day period has EXPIRED, a SEPARATE application has to be sent to the Traffic Enforcement Centre as well to REQUEST PERMISSION to allow you to submit your  Witness Statement LATE (ie; Out of Time)….hence the name of the forms.

 

In this respect, you would also be required to send to TEC either form PE2 (Application to file a Statutory Declaration Out of Time)  or form TE7 (Application to file a statement Out of Time).

 

Here are the pitfalls:

Because the time period to file a Witness Statement has expired.....the debt will NOT automatically be cancelled.  Instead, the Traffic Enforcement Centre must send both forms (TE7 and TE9 or PE2 and PE3) to the local authority (Dart Charge , Merseyflow etc). They are given a period of 19 business days to decide whether or not they are willing to give THEIR PERMISSION to allow you to file your witness statement LATE. In reaching their decision, the council would rely upon the information provided in the 'reason' section on the PE2 or TE7. It will not be sufficient to merely state that you had moved address and this is the mistake that the vast majority of motorists make !!

Edited March 23, 2019 by Bailiff Advice

[Peterbard]

Hi

The universal opinion seems to that you need to include more info to back up your claim. Perhaps a utility bill, council or tax bill from the new property that sort of thing.

 

The problem with these appeals is that people are being encouraged to make them irrespective of the truth or winnability of their case. Of course when they come unstuck they are nowhere to be seen.

 

In your case, taking everything you have said, I think I would do the same thing as you appear to be doing, anyway good luck.

 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Dodgeball

[Peterbard]

rI am just fishing here so please ignore if the following has nothing to do with your case.

There is a resurgence it seems of so called advice forums telling people to pay councils direct to avoid bailiff fees.

 

This mistaken idea has been goimg on for some time. So long in fact that many authorities have ceased accepting payments under theses conditions at all, or if they do they just pass the to the Bailiff company.

 

I do not intend to further push the point, other than to say, this has never worked, not once, and please examine other online Government advice pages before you take this step.

 

I can provide a link if you are unable to locate.

 

 

peterbard

Edited March 26, 2019 by Dodgeball