JP Morgan/Rooftop Arrears fees- The saga continues.

[jotty]

All I can find are the internal scratchpad notes, there arent any copies of letters sent to the companies but I suspect it was all done via email, I have done a quick pdf of the requests and highlighted in red when the visits took place to match up the the other list I have posted.agentsvisits 2.pdf

[BankFodder]

You could begin immediately with a letter of claim – but I think maybe a slightly more cautious approach could be useful. You might consider writing to them and informing them firstly that their data disclosure is incomplete because although it is clear that they arranged unauthorised visits (make sure that you emphasise that they were unauthorised), there is no reference to any correspondence relating to these arrangements in email form or in letter form. Point out to them that you have already taken legal action against them on one occasion in respect of their breach of the data protection act. You are now proposing to take a further action unless they respond with a complete disclosure without any further delay.
Secondly, as it is clear that they have shared your personal data, you are entitled to know with whom your personal data has been shared and they must respond with full details or else you will see them for that data protection breaches well.

Finally you should tell them that as the visits were not authorised because they were not made by appointment and you are not contacted about them, they were not entitled to impose any charges in respect of them – and even if the visits had been legitimately chargeable, it is clear that they would not be entitled to charge them out at a rate which exceeded the actual costs of the visit. Tell them that in addition to your proposal that you will see them for further breach of the data protection act, you are also considering suing them for the refund of charges plus interest unless they can show you why they consider that the visits were legitimate and in that case you require that they supply you with a full breakdown of the costs of the visit to show that the amount of charges they have levied against you do in fact reflect actual costs.

That's a bit convoluted – but you can work it out

[jotty]

Yes will do, if you dont mind I will post up the letter before I send it for you to check.

 

Thanks again 

[jotty]

BF, can you have a read of this please and see if it needs anything else.

 

[BankFodder]

Suggested changes in red

rtopcharred210319.docx

[jotty]

3 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Suggested changes in red

rtopcharred210319.docx 14.47 kB · 0 downloads

Yes, like the extra points, thank you.

 

I will get the letter sent off tomorrow and publish their response.

 

[jotty]

Had a response to the Home visits from JP Morgan who administered the mortgage prior to 2017, in it they make reference to my FOS complaint whereby the Ombudsman did make mention one complaint summing up that he felt the home visit fees where reasonable. Based on this they refuse to refund the home visit fees despite us never speaking to anyone when they were made. So appears we are stuffed on this and have no chance of getting back the fees.

 

They are still looking into the issue of an incomplete DSAR, so I await the details, particularly of visits arranged by them. 

[BankFodder]

I don't notice that the ombudsman has said that the fees were reasonable. I do notice that they said that the visits were reasonable. I also noticed that they said that you were informed in advance of the visit and the associated costs. Is this correct?

I should not necessarily take what the ombudsman says as gospel. The ombudsman is half-hearted, limp wristed and believes that their remit is to be fair to both sides. This is completely at odds with the prevailing legislation which is that the firm must treat you fairly and must have your interests in mind when making decisions. The legislation says nothing about being fair to themselves.

[jotty]

I’ll have to go through the docs in the SAR again, but didn’t agree at any stage to the visits or to pay fees. 

[BankFodder]

And by the way, you have received a letter from JP Morgan. Did you receive a similar letter from the ombudsman?

[jotty]

If you mean the final decision letter then yes, I’ll scan up the bit that refers to the home visits as soon as I can.

[BankFodder]

I'm afraid I'm a bit out of touch – and you are probably more familiar with all of this stuff than I am at the moment. Can you remind me or better still – link me to the place where it makes it clear that home visits can only be carried out with an appointment – and also where it says that the fees charged may only reflect the administrative costs. I know it somewhere but I can't remember where

[jotty]

Had a look and I can’t find anything that relates to home visits apart from costs being reasonable 

[BankFodder]

I'm absolutely sure that there are some guidelines – maybe FCA guidelines which refer to home visits and say that they should not be made without agreement. Maybe it wasn't in FCA guidelines – maybe it is in the judgement to 1 of the cases.

We need to find this.

[jotty]

Not sure if this is relevant https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/7/9.html

[BankFodder]

No, that's not what I had in mind.

[BankFodder]

 

Quote

These were:

• A fee for a returned direct debit which was charged regardless of how many times the direct debit had already been returned unpaid;
• Including arrears fees and charges in the balance on which an early repayment charge was calculated;
• Charging for field counsellor visits in full to some customers who had not been properly informed of the timing of the visit and/or of their right to refuse or cancel the visit; or who should have been charged a reduced rate cancellation fee; and
• A fee for litigation activities, which was applied even when such activities were taken by Redstone unnecessarily.

 

 

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Library/Communication/PR/2010/120.shtml

 

 

redstone.pdf

I haven't read this

[jotty]

And of course we where never informed of the time and date but only the face they intended to visit us and now appears also interrogate our neighbors in the process.

 

time for court maybe ? 

[BankFodder]

Yes I think that you are getting to that point.

I'd like to see the documentation relating to the visits. Also are you able to identify the charges which they levied for those visits?

[jotty]

Managed to delve through the many documents they sent, re the Home visits they have on each occasion informed us that they will be making them and that we had the option to cancel - but with limited time to do so. As we would have failed to contact them then the visits went ahead, which on the face of it does weaken our position I guess. The main issue now will be the level of charges £60-£90 for counselling visits that actually never took place, I note on the reports that boxes are ticked which make assumptions based on the lack of contact that could clearly be incorrect without actually speaking to the home owner.

 

The bottom line, appears to be that they will send counsellors/investigators to you without any real permission, implied or not, and that you will pay.

 

Need to have a think about how to proceed now, if at all.

[BankFodder]

Yes I'm afraid that this does weaken your case considerably. As you have seen in the FSA/FCA notice, a point which they emphasise several times was that the right of cancellation or the right not to have the visit was never explained.

You say there was very little notice – but how much notice was actually given?

You say that the visits never took place – is this because they attempted the visit and couldn't get access? Was an appointment made? If they informed you of the visits and of your right to cancel but then didn't make appointments and simply sent people round then I think this puts you in a good position. However, if they made an appointment then I think your position is extremely poor.

I'm wondering what the reasonable cost of a visit might be. £60 might be borderline reasonable. £90 seems to me to be pushing it. I think you should be entitled to see the invoices they received from the company carrying out the visits.

[jotty]

One one occasion, they sent the letter out and was received on the same date that we had to cancel, so that would have been impossible. The remainder have no dates so it would be hard to prove wether we had time to cancel, or that they hadnt given us enough.

Sorry yes the visits took place, but we never spoke to anyone. This is recorded in the reports posted earlier, however each report has tick box assumptions and a few lines which I feel should not have been made without having contact, and because that never took place then the tick boxes should be blank. They made appointments, and kindly word the letter saying that if we dont contact then then the visit will go ahead, I guess under implied consent. No appointments were ever made by us.

 

Doubt if we will get invoices, other than the reports which are on previous posts #13&#17.

[BankFodder]

Are you saying that some visits were proposed but they gave you no dates?

Have you any evidence of the date upon which you received the notice of visit which coincided with the date of the visit?

How many visits to they claim were arranged/are you being charged for – as against visits which actually took place?

Can you tell us about these tick box assumptions please. Maybe you could scan one of these notices and let us see it.

[jotty]

I have scanned up two of the letters re visits but having problems attatching to the post, but one dated 26/01/13 was received on the evening of the 28/01/13, and it states that we had to ring them by the 29th which wasn't possible so the visit went ahead.

 

All the others dont tell us when a visit is going to happen , and as explained at no stage where we contacted by the companies concerned to arrange times etc.

 

The tick box part is on the copies of the reports in post #13, but I have done a snip of the tick boxes on the forms, but again am struggling to attach to post.

[BankFodder]

What problems are you having posting the attachments? How big are they and what kind of files are they?