JP Morgan/Rooftop Arrears fees- The saga continues.

[jotty]

2 hours ago, dx100uk said:

in the PPI forum where they have always been

 

Yes thanks, wish I’d known before I spent an hour going rough old threads, found my copy as well now doh !

[jotty]

Had a look at the various statements this morning and I have excluded things such as solicitors fees etc as per the advice.

 

Am I correct in thinking I can include :-

 

Misc Fees £30, Arrears management fees £40-£50, Agents Fee £50-£94 (no actual contact ever made), Default Notice £25.

 

I am also being charged interest, £9 a month, on the balance of the fees which they claim stands at £4590 (which includes Sols fees and Insurance fees) 

 

The total amount calculated since Dec 2007 using the spreadsheet is £3790 inc 8%.

 

Advice please before I take the next step.CISheet redv101.xls

[AndyOrch]

Hi 

 

With regards to their admission and payment already made ...take a read of the relevant CPR

 

In particular CPR 14 .3 and 14.4.

 

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part14

 

But given that they have already settled the amount...then requesting judgment would be pointless as the claim is settled.So you can either leave the claim stayed or discontinue the claim.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BankFodder]

Although it would be pointless from the point of view that it wouldn't gain you any thing else – as you have your money and also you have your disclosure, a judgement would be very important. It is about time these institutions get a slap and the one thing they don't want is they don't want a judgement against them for breach of statutory duty – which this is.

I was very surprised when you told us that it was not possible to apply for a judgement – rather sceptical in fact. On the basis of what Andyorch has said, it seems to me that you are able to apply for adjustment and I would urge you strenuously to do so.

If you manage to obtain a copy of the judgement – then we would be extremely pleased to publish it here and it is this kind of thing that makes the effort that we put into helping people all worthwhile.

Also, the judgement would be sent to the ICO as part of a complaint and also to the FCA. Whereas these institutions don't seem to take ordinary complaints from ordinary individuals very seriously, when they get a court judgement, they will ask questions.

Please get a judgement. If there happens to be some fee involved – then let us know what it is and we may be able to pay it.

[AndyOrch]

The most probable reason that judgment was denied was because they had acknowledged service  and time allowed to submit the admittance and make payment had not expired.

 

" It is important to make an offer of payment on the form. This is section 11 on the form. If you leave it blank the court will decide you have not made an offer. They will tell you to pay the whole debt at once ‘forthwith’ or order you to pay the monthly payments the creditor asks for. " 

 

Full Admission – the defendant wishes to make an offer of repayment. This form should be sent directly to the claimant rather than the court

If you wish to accept this response and make an Order for repayment, you may continue to request judgment online.

 

If however, you do not agree with the repayment method the defendant has offered (or if they have not made an offer) you may ask the court to ‘determine’ the judgment.

You cannot request this online....it must be done manually N225

[jotty]

44 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

The most probable reason that judgment was denied was because they had acknowledged service  and time allowed to submit the admittance and make payment had not expired.

 

" It is important to make an offer of payment on the form. This is section 11 on the form. If you leave it blank the court will decide you have not made an offer. They will tell you to pay the whole debt at once ‘forthwith’ or order you to pay the monthly payments the creditor asks for. " 

 

Full Admission – the defendant wishes to make an offer of repayment. This form should be sent directly to the claimant rather than the court

If you wish to accept this response and make an Order for repayment, you may continue to request judgment online.

 

If however, you do not agree with the repayment method the defendant has offered (or if they have not made an offer) you may ask the court to ‘determine’ the judgment.

You cannot request this online....it must be done manually N225

Yes noted, I will have another look at the MCOL page with the details on. I did tick the box to acknowledge payment made and presumed it automatically means the case is settled in the prescribed time meaning no further action can be taken. 

Below are screenshots of the MCOL page, I have removed the part with my details on. Cant see how I move to Judgement from this page.

Edited March 13, 2019 by jotty

[jotty]

21 hours ago, jotty said:

Had a look at the various statements this morning and I have excluded things such as solicitors fees etc as per the advice.

 

Am I correct in thinking I can include :-

 

Misc Fees £30, Arrears management fees £40-£50, Agents Fee £50-£94 (no actual contact ever made), Default Notice £25.

 

I am also being charged interest, £9 a month, on the balance of the fees which they claim stands at £4590 (which includes Sols fees and Insurance fees) 

 

The total amount calculated since Dec 2007 using the spreadsheet is £3790 inc 8%.

 

Advice please before I take the next step. CISheet redv101.xls 57.5 kB · 1 download

 

Any advice on how to proceed with the possible refund of the fees please folks.

[jotty]

I intend to send Rooftop a request of refund of the fees, of course they will refuse so this will be followed by a LBA and most likely court.

If anyone has any recent experience of similar then any advice would be gratefully received.

[BankFodder]

I'll have a look at this tomorrow but would you mind starting a new thread . I think this thread is done very well dealing with the problem of the sar now you are moving on to a new issue and i think it would be worth starting a new discussion . Thanks

 

Layout the story from zero using a bullet pointed chronology so that we can all understand it and if the thread is visited by people who are not familiar with what has gone on so far they will be able to get the whole story

[jotty]

Following on from the SAR topic, I have now got the info and would welcome advice please. So here is the quick version :-

 

1. mortgage taken out in 2007 with Platform, who almost immediately sold it onto JP Morgan.This was one of the horrible sub-prime jobbies and almost straight away because my wife lost her job, we had issues.
2. Over the next couple of years, lots of tears and tantrums during which time good old JP hit us with arrears charges and eventually a possession attempt which we had suspended when the arrears were cleared.
3. In 2011 again work for my wife dried up so we struggled and fell into arrears again, 3 months max at anytime. I made over payments to stop the p/o being enforced but the arrears fees kept on coming, £30/40/50 pm along with failed agents fees for home visits which we felt wasn't necessary.
4. 2013 to 2017 arrears reduced to one month depending on date, they wanted 15th but I got paid on 1st, so we again had fees added. mortgage transferred to JPM naughty step dept-Rooftop.
5. There are also a few extra interest charges, and currently we are being charged £50pm, and they have now separated the charges into a separate account but still enjoy telling us every month that our arrears have increased, when in fact they havent but they like to add the fees to the arrears to make it look far worse than it is.
6. Current arrears £1000 (less than 2 months and decreasing), but fees now total £4500.
7. We have complained to the Ombudsman who sided with Rooftop and said that the charges where fair and in line with the agreed amounts. This includes various insurance charges and solicitor fees.

 

So when I look at the statements going back to Jan 2007, the fees charged not including Insurance or solicitors which I have give up on come to £2187, with 8% added making it £3794. This is the figure I would like to get back if possible as its made up entirely of Arrears Management Fees.

I'd rather you good people didn't dwell on why the mortgage arrears continue as we have done our best and still have many sleepless nights, but they are reducing by £100pm atm.

 

I have written to JP previously about the charges but had the usual fob off, but feel I need to start the process again but only if we have a decent chance of getting something back.

[BankFodder]

I'm not too sure why the AutoLinker to – mortgage or mortgages in your post is not working.

Very strange because they are working in this post.

Anyway start off by following the link – mortgage – and that will give you an idea of the theory.

I say that it is theory because I'm not aware that anyone on this forum has yet claimed any charges incurred as a result of a mortgage.  This is despite the fact that we have been encouraging people to do this for quite a long time.

However, according to the judgements, they are not entitled to levy charges which are in excess of their administrative losses and furthermore they are not entitled then the actual cost of visits. We have certainly found instances on this forum of visits being arranged without appointment and without agreement and then just being charged for.

Although the amount of money you are talking about is well within the small claims limit, you are still going to incur some fees if you lose and so it might be an idea to try and fragment your claim a little bit so that you can run one experimentally.

Advantages of this include the fact that suing for a small amount means that you risk less fees. The other side are more likely to put their hands up because they will think that it's not worthwhile economically to defend it, and finally it can be a bit of a pathfinder for you (and us) so that we can understand how to go about it.

I see that you are referring to charges and also to visitors fees. I'm wondering what the visitors fees amount to and whether they have been calculated in a way which exceeds the actual cost of them. Could you please let us know. It might be simpler beginning to recover those by way of a little experiment

 

[jotty]

2 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

I'm not too sure why the AutoLinker to – mortgage or mortgages in your post is not working

 

Maybe the site itself has given up on me as well now !! lol

[BankFodder]

And just to add to my above post, I suddenly realised of course that you have whet your experience because you have already sued them once for a DPA breach.

[jotty]

Yes I agree re splitting, the visit fees are around £300 so I may request a refund of those first. The other arrears fees are named differently - “Arrears fee”, “Arrears management fee” etc so I could also split them and ask for specific named ones back.

 

When I read the detail in the SAR, there are notes about the visits and copies of the agents report. On 3 occasions the last being in January he states he visited but got no reply but did speak to neighbours who confirmed we lived at our address. The neighbours must wonder what is going on and explains the strange looks we keep getting. They have charged us £90 for the last visit. We however spoke to no one.

Edited March 18, 2019 by jotty

[BankFodder]

Do you have any details of the visit fees? For instance, are there any invoices or any bills from the person who conducted the visit? Where these visits conducted by appointment with you? Did the visit actually take place? How many visits were there? How are they described?

[jotty]

3 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Do you have any details of the visit fees? For instance, are there any invoices or any bills from the person who conducted the visit? Where these visits conducted by appointment with you? Did the visit actually take place? How many visits were there? How are they described?

Sorry both posting at same time, see my edited response at #5

[BankFodder]

Okay I think that you will have to rummage around I'm afraid but somewhere there are very clear guidelines that no visits are to be made without appointments. Also it would be a good idea if you could speak with the neighbours and find out what was discussed because maybe there would be a breach of confidentiality/data protection as well. Have you any idea who conducted the visit? Was it a different firm in which case it might be worth sending them an SAR as well. Although this may drag out a bit, it will be well worth trying to acquire as much information as possible before you take any kind of action.

[jotty]

Posted on another site as that was the only one I could find that refers to getting visit charges back but like a few on here doesn’t always tell us how it worked out so will give it a day or so. I am certain they just can’t force people to pay for these visits, and on admin the SAR it let really say why they wanted the visit apart from maybe harden their case against us as they seem to have been arranged after they had decided to consider enforcing the SPO.

 

my intention is to go for these charges first as they come to £600 with the interest, I note that in 2008 they charged £90 but refunded £30 when we didn’t speak to them. They seem very keen to play pocket detective and as around neighbours as to wether we live at our house.

 

any advice as usual would be welcome.

[BankFodder]

Does it say anything in their terms and conditions about visits? In any event it seems clear that they are entitled to apply charges which would include an element of profit. That essentially makes it an unlawful penalty and as such none of it is recoverable. The courts don't even have the power to award a "reasonable" cost.

Presumably you've looked at your disclosure file. Have you inspected it carefully for anything relating to visits and have you noticed that there is anything missing?

I think you should try and make a very thorough detailed account of the visits, precisely what happened and the charges and then begin a claim on that.

I think also you should write to them and asked for a detailed breakdown of the charges they have applied for the visits. You may as well warn them that you are going to challenge this matter in court and they will be required to provide this information at the inevitable trial. You may as well do this in a letter of claim.

[jotty]

Yes I’ve read the “notepad” entry they use on my file, and they have also included copies of the report from the companies. 

 

 The most recent one is like a Police report on how they saw a man they believed to be me leave in a taxi (in fact it was my brother in law who was staying with us night before he went on holiday). I’ll try and sanitise it and post it up for you to read.

 

When you say ‘what’s missing’ am I looking for specifics ?

[BankFodder]

I have no idea. I'm simply prompting you to take a very special look at what they have given to you and to see if there is anything that might be missing because that would give you more ammunition.

Has it got the names of the companies which visited you? Has he included copies of the instructions they gave to the visiting companies?

is there any reference to the date upon which the visiting companies received their instructions?

[jotty]

I have done a scan of the notepad entries from their systems and also the reports from the Agents who they have paid to call and then charge back to us without consent.

 

To be clear neither me nor my wife have ever spoken to any of them, even though they claim to have on at least on occasion and the report from last Oct is when they doorstepped my brother in law as he was leaving for the airport, having stayed at our overnight due to it being close to where he was flying from. They also seem to like speaking to neighbours, we don't know them that well but you can imagine how upset this has made us feel. Its like living in the Eastern Block during the 50's.agentvisits.pdf

 

 

[BankFodder]

Can you confirm that there is no trace of any instructions or correspondence with the visitors in the data disclosure?

[jotty]

5 minutes ago, BankFodder said:

Can you confirm that there is no trace of any instructions or correspondence with the visitors in the data disclosure?

Sorry not sure what you mean, I have scanned and posted all the letters,report and notes relating to the visits.

[BankFodder]

Well it's only that the lender must have asked for the visits to take place. Therefore I would expect to see something in the file to reflect that.