Subsistence meal allowance more then 5 hours

[queensclose]

Does anyone have any knowledge of subsistence meal allowance.    Been doing the job for 10 years.   Normal day is go in to office.  Normally around 3 hours then do local calls rest of the day

last year because of staff shortages I was asked  1 week in every 5 to support another office and agreed that I was entitled to the subsistence meal more then 5 hours less then 10.  At £4.20 a day.  (After Googling I think it should be £5)

i live 5 miles from the office  the other office is 25 miles away

 

ok my question is.  Next week they have asked me to work at another office which is in the opposite direction to my house  which is also 5 miles away.  But that office has said because they are so busy I could work from home and the calls are even closer 2 miles from home.   They even dropped the work for the week over to me

 

but asked me during the coarse of the day to drop completed work into the office by giving  it to security 

 

i havent asked side work if I could claim the subsistence allowance because I don’t want put thoughts into heads    And their not really Knowledgable on these matters.   I normally they just guess what they think is right

 

does anyone have knowledge of these matters

 

thanks

 

 

[sangie5952]

There is no legal right to subsistence allowances at all. And, in fact, getting one simply for going to another nearby office (25 miles is next to no distance ) is (a) highly unusual and quite generous of the employer and (b) almost certainly a taxable benefit given your description. Whether your employer is willing to give subsistence payments for simply dropping work off at an office when you are working from home and only doing local calls, that would be up to them. But they are certainly the only knowledgeable people on the matter since they don’t have to give you anything.

[Emmzzi]

I think you need to check the company policy on subsistance - can you get hold of it?

[ericsbrother]

subsistence is normally applied when you are away from your place of work and is to cover the extra expenses of being away. there is a maximum set by the taxman but I must say that a lunch allowance is quite rare where no overnight stays are part of the daily allowance ( I used to get money for overnight accommodation and meals for the time away but that was normally a minimum of 1 night and 2 days but more usually a week.) the amount is set by agreeemnt with the taxman and wont change regardless of the type of accommodation.

So, in your case as there are no overnight stop outs involved your employer is just using this as a way of paying you a little for the inconvenience rather than paying a necessary expense. For that reason I wouldnt be arguing over the amount and if you feel like mentioning it in passing and dont get a positive response just drop the matter or you may lose what you have already

[queensclose]

The subsistence allowance is HMRC policy.  Company’s that pay it  claim it back via taxes.   

But cant find any thing about distances.   Overnight doesn’t come into it for away from office more then 5 hrs less then 11 meal     HMRC help desk said as far as they are aware there is no distance policy as long as you don’t spend more the 40% of the time covering the other office in a 24 month period 

im looking for some who has knowledge that can confirm  it in case work questions it

[sangie5952]

Err, no. If you are an employee HMRC set rules and limits about the allowances that employers MIGHT make IF they WANT to. HMRC has no power to tell an employer that they MUST give subsistence allowances, and HMRC has no power to tell an employer what those payments are, or in what circumstances they must pay them. What HMRC do is apply their rules and regulations to the scheme that the employer applies, and set taxes accordingly. Since none of us know what that scheme is, then neither we nor HMRC can help you. The only people who know what your employers scheme is happen to be your employers. 

 

And HMRC quite simply do not reimburse employers for the allowances they pay. That is nonsense. What I think you are confusing is certain allowances that may be eligible for taxable deductions, but I have only previously come across these allowances in relation to contract or agency workers. Are you not an employee? However, that’s irrelevant anyway. The employer or client (whichever is the case) determines what the allowance is. Not HMRC. 

[queensclose]

Is there any knowledgable about the HMRC rules about distances.   Don’t really want to get into a debate.    Just need some who has been in a similar situation 

[honeybee13]

Have you looked on the HMRC website?

 

HB

[Emmzzi]

2 hours ago, queensclose said:

Is there any knowledgable about the HMRC rules about distances.   Don’t really want to get into a debate.    Just need some who has been in a similar situation 

Hi,

 

are you an HMRC employee?

 

If not, you really do need your own company policy. My company for example never pay a lunch allowance, and we have a really strong union so I think if it was the law, they would be paying!

 

I think you may be looking for a thing which does not exist. The 40% time at another office is to do with when the travel expenses you get become taxable as you are deeemed to have changed location. I think not the same thing.

Edited March 16, 2019 by Emmzzi

[sangie5952]

What you are failing to appreciate is that the problem here is not that we don’t know the answer but that you don’t know the question. What you are looking for does not exist. What your employer has done in paying you this allowance is not law. It’s a choice. This is not a “debate”. It’s a fact. You simply don’t want to accept the fact. Your employer has been very generous in paying anything in the past. You may not appreciate it, but actually they could have enforced that relocation for part or all of your time without paying you a penny. There really is law on that. So given that they are not even asking you to do anything more than drop off some work, you might want to consider that whole saying about “gift horses”. If they review their policy, which can be changed, then that may well be exactly what they do. They are paying out money they don’t have to. 

 

[queensclose]

Been working there for years and my contract says when I joined you will be based at xxxxxxx.     It’s an on going problem   Shortage if staff.  Many people have refused   They haven’t being forced.   It is in our contract that they can ask.  

So no they can’t force me   

No I don’t work for HMRC.    

 

You can find substance allowance policy on HMRC site  which any decent employer should follow.    

 

[queensclose]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/abolition-of-receipt-checking-for-benchmark-scale-rates-and-changes-to-overseas-scale-rates/abolition-of-receipt-checking-for-benchmark-scale-rates-and-changes-to-overseas-scale-rates

[honeybee13]

What point are you making with the HMRC link please? It doesn't seem to say that employers have to pay this money.

 

HB

[queensclose]

No one has said they have.    

Link is there for those who don’t know about it 

[sangie5952]

And the link confirms exactly what you have been told repeatedly! And it actually doesn’t even say what you said it does! It says that the employer is allowed to pay up to a maximum amount without the allowance being taxable, if someone travels for five hours. Not if they work for five hours! Your office is 25 miles away. Unless that happens to be on an island without a ferry it would be dratted hard to spend five hours travelling to the office! 

 

And yes, actually - the employer may have chosen not to force you to relocate 25 miles. In most circumstances they can, if they choose, force relocation for up to 50 miles and/ or 90 minutes travel each way. The law allows it.

 

You don’t seem to appreciate that you came and asked for advice that you don't actually want to take. So, just for your benefit....

 

You are entirely correct. Your employer must pay you £5 whoever you feel hungry, even if that happens when you haven't yet got out of bed. If you need to pop to the end of the road, even if you walk, you should also get a tax free petrol allowance of £25 per day. Any and all clothes you wear should be bought by the employer. But if the employer sends the bills for all of this to HMRC then the government will pay them back with 3% interest. On Monday you should pop in to your employers office, ensuring that you claim the lunch allowance of course, and threaten them with legal action if they don't pay up immediately. 

 

Good luck with your job search....

 

I'm out.

[Emmzzi]

Please have a look on the company intranet/ company handbook/ ask HR for your company specific expenses and travel policy. The answers will be in there. If anything is confusing, do come back and post up the content so we can help.

[queensclose]

Your reply is really confusing.  Don’t know where you got 5 hour travelling from

 

to try to make it simple.   Subsistence meal allowance is a government bench mark that companies can use 

it was introduced many years ago.   When companies had subsistenced canteens and sent employees to other sites. It has nothing to do with travelling time or ferries.  Don’t know where you got that one from

 

as your aware some companies don’t do  it     Mine does

 

as my original question  

the office and work next week is closer.   All I wanted was someone knowledgable on the matter.  in case the question was asked if under the HMRC policy (if your company follows it).  Allows it 

  

And no even if the company allows it they don’t have pay the maximum amount.  They could set it at £4.  

 

To to claim it  you must work (not limited to travelling) 5 hours or more.  Hence it being called  subsistence allowance 5 hours or more but less then 10

 

I have got to the bottom of it.   HMRC don’t have a distance restriction.   So could in theory be relocated to an office next door to you house as long as you don’t work their more then 40% of your time in a 2 year period. But your company does not have to accept it 

I did ask if anyone was knowledgable and not what your thoughts where

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by queensclose

[Emmzzi]

Hello,

 

I thought you were asking if the company have to pay it? Which will be detailed in their handbook or policies.

 

HMRC are to do with if you will get taxed on it, which is a different question.

 

What are you trying to find out please?

Edited March 16, 2019 by Emmzzi

[queensclose]

Sorry Emmzzi.   My earlier reply was not aimed you

the company follows HMRC on it.  I just needed to find out what HMRC guidance is on distance from home to office.    As I will be working at an office closer to home then I normally would.    But I now know that HMRC does not have anything on distance.   Only working away from where your normal place of work for 5 hours or more

 

but the company could say no (HMRC say they could).  In which case I would be referred to HR handbook which refers to the government bench mark on travel and subsistence 

 

at at the end the day it’s a perk 

thanks

[Emmzzi]

ahh ok. Glad you have it sorted. but do ask if you have any problems.