CEL PCN - Entrance Road Nursery Car Park Kingsford way E6 5YA

[Karalius]

Hi guys,

Hoping you are all well. 

 

Just received a letter for PCN.

My partner was driving at this time.

She was picking up our daughter from a nursery.

 

The location where PCN was issued is within the ground of the nursery.

Unfortunately she over stayed around 18 minutes without paying.

No ticket was attached to the vehicle at the time. 

 

She was advised by the nursery that they do not ticket the car if it's under 10 minutes, however did this time as it was longer.

 

Should we settle the cost of 60 quid?

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

 

 

 

Scannable_Document_on_15_Mar_2019_at_12_32_22.pdf

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

We need the information from the forum sticky in order to advise you please.

 

 

HB

[ericsbrother]

to be honest you should know what to do by now, you have collected enough of them before and been told just about all of the permutations

 

if it is ticket slapped on the vehicle you do nothing for the moment but next time you are there you photograph the entrance to the land from the public highway and all of the signage in the parking area.

 

If it was the first  letter through the post then it has failed miserably to fulfil any of the requirements of the POFA so no-one owes them a penny

 

I would ask the nursery whether they hve done a DBS check on the bod taking the details as they havent used ANPR as there are no pictures on the NTK.

 

om goggleyes there is no signage other than a small one saying you might be clamped so no contract.

That is from May 2018 so anything newe wont appear on the pictures which is good news for you as you can use the screen shots to cast doubt on their story.

 

also to be picky there isnt a car park on Tollgate rd, it is in Kingsford way

 

CEL tell lies

 

[Karalius]

1 Date of the infringement – 27/02/2019

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] – 04/03/2019

 

3 Date received – 11/03/2019

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?] - Y

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? No

6 Have you appealed? {y/n?] post up your appeal] - N

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up - N/A

 

7 Who is the parking company? Civil Enforcement Ltd

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] By Entrance on Kingsford way to a car park of a nursery, E6 5YA

 

[Karalius]

Thanks Eric, I agree with you and I kind of understand it, but I am always paranoid I will do something incorrect and mess  it up... 

 

This is the first letter I received and no ticket was slapped on the car at the time of event.

 

You are right about google, there is no signage on the pictures, however there are 100% signs now inside that parking courtyard.

 

I will stop by the nursery myself next week I take my daughter and speak to the staff.

 

You are also right about car park being on Kingsford Way, should have made it more clearer. 

 

Many thanks

 

[ericsbrother]

but CEL say it is Tollgate rd.

Now that is the address for the nursery but does that accurately identify the land?

 

This moot point  wont win you the war but show CEL have been slapdash elsewhere and the rest of what they say this is true will carry little weight and small things like this just add to the weight of your arguments.

Pictures of signs and ANPR system please.

[Karalius]

You are correct, that post code and the address on letter comes up as a main road entrance.

 

The car park is located at the back from the main road that you enter via Kingsford Way.

 

I will drive up there right now to get some pictures and will post shortly. 

 

Thanks again!

[Karalius]

Hi, please find attached images of the car park and entrance from the road.

 

One thing that I noted is that upon entering the car park the signs on wall are CEL, however inside the actual car park it is from company called StarPark.

 

Please also see ANPR camera in the middle of the car park.

 

Thanks 

 

jpg2pdf (7).pdf

[ericsbrother]

the companies often have this odd arrangement but they are not even run  y the same people but the actual peopel who run them are good frienrds and the peopel named on the Companies House registration are just front men. Totally illegal but no-one polices this so it is more common than it should be.

 

This means that CEL cant enforce on behalf of a third party. This is  somehting they know and tend to go quiet when they sue people and this is raised as part of a defence.

 

also note that the signon the entrance is an "invitation to treat" so that menas you can ignore the other signs anyway. As for only paying by phone- unfair contract.

 

Also if Starpark are the service provider it would be unlawful for CEL to obtain your keeper details from the DVLA as they have no  reasonable cause to do so.

 

You need to write to the DVLA and ask then is Starpark Ltd are permitted automated access under the KADOE agreement and if they are not then you complain that CEL are breaching their agreement because they are working solely for soemone who has no authority to have your details.

 

Get on with this now and when you get a response from the DVLA tell us and we will probably advise a compaint to the ICO.

 

Also ask the local council if anyione has planning permission for the cameras and signage

[Karalius]

Wow, it amazes me how knowledgeable you are good sir. All of those points are valid. Thank you!

 

I will get the letter posted out to DVLA today. Can you please advise if below letter sounds ok? 

------

"My name & address

 

To whom it may concern

 

I write to request that DVLA provide me with details and reason of who and why enquires have been made on my vehicle during period of February 1st 2019 to March 18^th 2019.

 

Further to above, can you please advise if Starpark LTD are permitted to receive automated access under KADOE agreement?

 

My vehicle details are: ------- I also attach a V5C document to prove my ownership of the vehicle."

-----

I have also found an address for local council (Newham) that I am planning to write to - any advise on below too please? I am planning to also include the pictures for the specific area (car park)

 

My name & address

 

To whom it may concern

 

Can you please provide planning permission for the cameras and signage at below address:

 

Car Park at 218 Tollgate Road, London, E6 5YA (in specific the car park as you enter Kingsford Way) 

 

This is required for proof purposes on my current PCN case. 

 

Many thanks

 

**EDIT** Is this also correct address to send into DVLA? 

Release of Information

Paying Enquiries Section

DVLA

Swansea

SA99 1AJ

 

or

 

[email protected]

 

 

 

 

 

[ericsbrother]

dont tell the council why you want the info,

they are less likely to want to say anything but be clear they are ANPR cameras as these are different to ordinary CCTV cameras as far as consent goes.

 

DVLA address leed looking up.

 

You ask who and when and what was the reason given. you then ask is Star park have access to the KADOE system as they are 2 separate things

 

This is in other posts so start reading more.....

[Karalius]

Good morning Eric,

 

Hoping all is well.

 

I have sent the letters to both DVLA and Newham Council on 21st of March. It has been almost 2 weeks, but have had no reply. Should I be worried or try and resend again? 

 

Many thanks

[ericsbrother]

give the council a ring and remind them.

the DVLA have a specific office that delas with such requests and they ahve a habit of ignoring all correspondence that arrives at the wrong postcode and this seems to be a ploy to avoid having to both answer your query and produce statistics that show they are abetting unlawful activity

[Karalius]

Hi CAG!

 

Hoping you all had a great Easter.

 

Update:

Having sent 2x letters to both DVLA and Newham Council I had no response yet.

 

I spoke with Newham Council planning department, they had told me that they are not able to provide any details in regards to the ANPR Camera and it must be put in writing (which I did).

Same with DVLA, but I am getting no responses.

 

Both letters 2nd time were sent as signed for and they had been accepted.

Is there anything else I can do? 

 

I have returned home from being week away and found another letter from CEL that I put aside with other letters for time being. 

 

Any suggestions are appreciated! 

 

Thank you. 

 

 

1.pdf

[Mrs O'Frog]

I would approach DVLA in 2 stages.

 

Stage 1 - email [email protected] with the request for who, when and why obtained your details. That normally gets a reasonably speedy response. Once you have that response it will determine what stage 2 needs to be.

 

They only have certain procedures listed to follow, so if you include two types of question in one letter it can confuse them as free thinking is not encouraged.

[Karalius]

Thank you, I will try sending an email.

I have actually sent 2 separate letters as suggested by Eric.

No reply to either letter.

[ericsbrother]

TBH your phrasing of what you want from the council isnt that clear. You need to ask them if planning permission has been granted under the 2007 Act for the signage and cameras at.......

Your version looks like you are vaguely asking for planning permission to put cameras up!

Now with the DVLA you give your personal and vehicle detaisl and ask WHO has accessed your personal data, WHEN and what was the stated reason

[Karalius]

Hi guys,

 

I have just received an email from DVLA regarding the KADOE system for StarPark LTD.

DVLA does not recognise them and they are not permitted to get information?

Could this be correct? 

 

Thanks, please see below. 

 

Dear  Sir or Madam,

 

Thank you for your e-mail dated 22/04/2019 regarding the below company. 

As one of the mangers within the Vehicle record Enquiry section this has been passed for my attention.

 

I can advise you that the company Starpark Ltd is not known to me therefore at this time they do not have access to our  KADEO service and are not permitted to receive information via this service.

 

Please note your request for the release of details of any request made for your details from our records has been actioned and a reply has been sent by royal mail please allow a few days for delivery.

 

Kind regards,

 

Letitia

[ericsbrother]

so you didnt ask the right question,

WHO HAS ACCESSED MY DATA, WHEN AND WHY. was the first instruction for your letter to the DVLA

 

you have half of the answer though and that is enough to show that whoever did access the system will have unlawfully passed on your details to star park

 

Now you will have to start all over again but this time you show us EXACTLY what you intend to say before you send the letter

You are not new to parking problems so we expect you to pay more attention

Edited May 2, 2019 by ericsbrother

[Karalius]

9 minutes ago, ericsbrother said:

so you didnt ask the right question,

WHO HAS ACCESSED MY DATA, WHEN AND WHY. was the first instruction for your letter to the DVLA

 

you have half of the answer though and that is enough to show that whoever did access the system will have unlawfully passed on your details to star park

 

Now you will have to start all over again but this time you show us EXACTLY what you intend to say before you send the letter

You are not new to parking problems so we expect you to pay more attention

Hi Eric,

 

Thanks for the reply. I have sent them two separate emails as suggested in previous post. One to ask who has accessed my details and one to ask if StarPark has access to KADOE system records.

 

I have not yet had a reply who has accessed my details.

 

Thanks

[ericsbrother]

you wont, they cannot respond to an email without some proof of identity for such an enquiry

 

[Karalius]

Just now, ericsbrother said:

you wont, they cannot respond to an email without some proof of identity for such an enquiry

 

I have attached my V5 document and driving license in the email. Is that not enough?

 

Thanks

[ericsbrother]

That is down to them but they are not obliged to consider an email and as they know they are in trouble they will do anything to obfuscate.

 

I really dont undersatnd why people wnat to demand to use email when a proper letter is theonly or best possible method of correspondence.

 

now in your case they may well send the requested information to you via their promised letter because they cant send it in an email as they have no way of verifying any email address

[lookinforinfo]

There are two other matters to consider. The general rule with parking companies is that they allow 10 minutes grace. So it seems unfair that here they expect you to pay to park within that period when you have not yet made up your mind to park at all.

The second point is that as they are with BPA then there are two periods of time involved prior to a ticket being issued. The first is the observation period [which is ten minutes minimum] and the second period is the grace period which is not specified but eight minutes over could include things like strapping a young child into  their car seat as well as an allowance for extra time when toddlers are involved. 

https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods

[Karalius]

1 hour ago, ericsbrother said:

That is down to them but they are not obliged to consider an email and as they know they are in trouble they will do anything to obfuscate.

 

I really dont undersatnd why people wnat to demand to use email when a proper letter is theonly or best possible method of correspondence.

 

now in your case they may well send the requested information to you via their promised letter because they cant send it in an email as they have no way of verifying any email address

Thanks Eric, I have already sent 2x separate letters via post. I did not get a reply for over a month, hence the reason for sending emails as suggested.

 

I will wait till end of this week and hope to receive a letter via post. If not I will follow up again with a proper letter via post. 

 

I have just received a letter from Newham Council planning permissions department (See below). I have also searched all the database myself and did not find any licenses or permissions being granted for the specific address. 

 

Thanks

 

"From your email I believe you are referring to the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) (England) Regulations 2007. 

 

I am unable to find any applications relating to new signage/advertisements at 218 Tollgate Road, E6 5YA."