Seized engine vehicle on day of purchase - Hartley Wintney motors UK

[Surfer01]

5 minutes ago, king12345 said:

That's why i said to avoid the Ombudsman. 

By accepting court mediation you will be fulfilling the requirements to use adr.

Note that it is called alternative dispute resolution,  not Ombudsman,  and being court mediation an adp, you don't need the Ombudsman. 

However the first thing a court will probably ask is if you have exhausted all other avenues for a resolution.  Secondly to go for mediation through the courts I think you have to raise a summons and you have to pay for this whereas the Ombudsman is free and a recognised mediation service. We did this in 2017 and it did not cost us a single penny in court fees.

[Mottymotto1]

Received this email from them today:

Without prejudice

1. We understand that you can become angry when you feel that matters about which you feel strongly are not being dealt with as you wish. If that anger escalates into aggression towards us, we consider that unacceptable.  Any aggression or abuse directed towards us will not be tolerated. Aggressive or abusive behaviour includes derogatory remarks and rudeness. If you carry on your rudeness, we will not communicate with you.
    
2. We have not received Wiltons of Shanklin ltd report. We requested you to email it. We will not contact anyone directly. 
    
3. If you arrange to return your vehicle to our forecourt for an inspection and we agree that this give you rights of rejection under CRA, we shall refund £3,794.00 only.
    
4. You are free to take this matter to the court. We will ensure to inform the court in our Directions Questionnaire that we cannot attend the hearing until December 2019.

 

 

 

Point 1 is because the responses they have been giving me have contained completely false info so I said to them that I thought I had been dealing with a professional complaints team as their responses were devoid of understanding of the legal matter and naive. (maybe true but anger is getting the better of me while they have my money and no car, and they are refusing to answer any questions I ask, but at no point have I been remotely aggressive other than to tell them I will take them to Court if they do not refund me, and quote consumer rights act to them).

 

Point 2 I just don't get. The garage has sent them the report they said they needed. It seems to me that they are trying to involve me in the "works" side of matters and I'm concerned if I do this it will put me on a back foot somehow. Also I don't believe I have to if the garage has sent it to them (also if this is their policy for complaint, then surely they should be telling me the complaint policy so I can follow it should I be required).

 

Point 3 they know is not possible. The garage have told them they will not release the vehicle until THEY pay the money owed for the exploratory work as THEY authorised the work to be done. Also I have rejected the vehicle, so not sure why this point is made (Also I live on the Isle of Wight and they have been quoted £400 to tow it back to them). 

Also the money stated does not represent the £300 deposit paid and additional costs incurred directly due to this matter

 

Point 4 is just ridiculous and is not a reasonable time frame. Im sure these matters can also be dealt with via paper so that neither party attends should it reach a hearing (unless the Judge gives directions to say otherwise)

 

They have not answered any of my questions i.e to have a final response (stating a reason as to why they will not refund if that is the decision), to inform me of their complaints procedure so that I can be clear and make sure both parties follow it, my offer to them to go through court mediation etc.....

 

Now Im not sure if i should reply to them or just open the claim. Personally im accepting this response as silence in respect to ADR, a final response, and refusal to take me through the complaints procedure.

 

Please guys, if you have any idea of what direction I need to go now it would be much appreciated as I need to act fast on this (p.s. I have sent the paperwork for the £3794 to cc provider and £300 to dd card provider in respect to the deposit for charge back, but have since been told this can take up to 90 days).

 

Sorry for the long message but Im incensed right now!

[Mottymotto1]

Also, relating to point 3, I forgot to mention that Wiltons garage, as from today have told Hartley Wintney motors that they are charging them a holding fee until the works payment is made and THEY arrange collection of the vehicle.

[king12345]

First of all, section 75 means that you get all of your money back, not only what you paid by cc.

Secondly, they try to confuse matters by claiming abusive behaviour, reports not received, etc.

Keep it clean, smooth, to the point and factual.

i.e.

As already stated:

1. Your allegation of abusive behaviour will not be entertained.  Should you have a complaint I suggest you report the matter to your local police station.

2. I have no part in your dealings with Wiltons of Shanklin ltd. They have been employed by you and I am not your agent, so you need to deal with them directly. I have only taken the car to them on your request.

3. £3794 does not suffice. I renew my request of refund of £xxxx

4. I don't work for the courts, so i cannot book a hearing after December 2019 for you. The judge will do it should he/she decide that you have enough good reasons to avoid attending court

 

My deadline remains unchanged.

 

They need to understand that you mean business. 

Did you say that they made the contract under a ltd company?

This might be important for future potential enforcement. 

Also, i don't think anyone commented on my thought of naming the cc company as co-defendant should they decline the section 75.

Is that possible/wise?

 

[Surfer01]

Do not bother with playing letter tennis with them.  Go straight for the jugular and use S75 to claim back your money and then let the CC and the supplier fight it out!

[king12345]

That's the best course of action, but what if the cc company declines the section 75?

[Surfer01]

1 minute ago, king12345 said:

That's the best course of action, but what if the cc company declines the section 75?

However have they declined the claim?  Worry about the "what if"at the time if by some remote chance they decline the claim.  Silly for any one to even think about court when they can use S75 to their best advantage and it is free.

[Mottymotto1]

Could the CC decline the s75? I thought that it was part of financial law.

I couldn't imagine this case would be declined by them, but then I'm not sure on what grounds an s75 could be declined (apart from the obvious like going over the 120 days or lying for example)

 

 

[Mottymotto1]

This is the response I sent to HW Motors:

 

Response to your email dated 14 March 2019, 14:47 (your comments are highlighted in blue)

 

1.     We understand that you can become angry when you feel that matters about which you feel strongly are not being dealt with as you wish. If that anger escalates into aggression towards us, we consider that unacceptable.  Any aggression or abuse directed towards us will not be tolerated. Aggressive or abusive behaviour includes derogatory remarks and rudeness. If you carry on your rudeness, we will not communicate with you.

I receive this point and lack of information as your refusal to respond to any/all of my questions that I have asked or points referred to in previous correspondence, in order to resolve this dispute.

2.     We have not received Wiltons of Shanklin ltd report. We requested you to email it. We will not contact anyone directly.

You employed Wiltons to conduct any works completed on the vehicle, and I am not employed by you to conduct your administration. If you require anything relating to your undertakings with a third party or any company/persons employed by you, then it is up to you to obtain this.

3.     If you arrange to return your vehicle to our forecourt for an inspection and we agree that this give you rights of rejection under CRA, we shall refund £3,794.00 only.

If you wish to conduct further checks on the vehicle then that is up to you. I have rejected the vehicle (serious fault) so it is no longer my responsibility. I am not your employee, should you wish to undertake any actions with your property and/or a third party you have employed and instructed, then that is up to you to arrange. The vehicle is held by the garage which you employed to conduct the work so you need to make these arrangements with them. Also the figure you mention is of £3794.00 does not suffice to resolve the dispute.

4.     You are free to take this matter to the court. We will ensure to inform the court in our Directions Questionnaire that we cannot attend the hearing until December 2019.

Neither you or I can make the decision on a hearing date. This is for the Deputy/District Judge to decide within their directions. The Judge will determine if either party has good enough reason to avoid dates given. The Court will wish to resolve the case a timely manner and within the Court guidance rules.

Summary

I do not wish to conduct “letter tennis” with you. I have made my position very clear with yourselves in relation to my expectations, requests and timeframes, and have worked with you to get a full and fair conclusion to this matter, yet you refuse to respond accordingly.

Therefore, I will no longer be responding to any correspondence from you which does not relate to you making sure my full refund, as detailed previously, is received by me by 4pm 16^th March 2019, as you have everything you need from me to date in order for you to resolve this issue, should this be a genuine concern of yours

[Surfer01]

Why are you playing letter tennis with them and ignoring good advice?  Ignore them and claim using S75!

[Mottymotto1]

Ive sent the documentation for s75 too, but this can take a while (and be declined?!?) so I'm chasing this method as well, just in case.

 

Plus there are additional costs I have incurred directly due to this so even if/when I get my main bulk owed back through s75, I will still need to go to small claims to claim the additional costs which have been included with my correspondence to them.

 

 

[king12345]

AGAIN, section 75 must get you ALL of your money, not just what you paid by cc, that's the regulation.

Why are you talking about the "main bulk"?

Most likely the section 75 money will be the only money you see, so you better claim for what you're entitled to,  the full amount.

Banks do whatever they can to avoid paying and if that means declining a section 75 for no reason,  they'll do it.

Then they see what you do and act accordingly. 

They might even wait for a court summon and pay costs, just to see if you are bluffing. 

 

Regarding your response to their silly letter, i preferred my point 1 instead of yours, but it's your letter, so do what you prefer.

You've hit the right tone though, dismissive, firm and down to business. 

Even though i still think they'll find a way to never pay you.

Can you please answer the question asked many times: did they give you a sale receipt in a limited company name?

[Mottymotto1]

The main bulk i mentioned was the £300 deposit and £3794 remaining balance. I have also asked them for the additional costs I incurred due to this which totals about £150 (insurance cancellation cost, transportation, etc...) - I dont really care about this but the way they are being I want every penny back!

 

The receipts I have from them the are card receipts from the POS machine which show Hartley Wintney Motors ltd, but the "self made" A4 receipt they printed out shows Hartley Wintney Motors UK.

 

I didnt realise the CC could refuse the s75, I thought this was financial protection governed by law and regulated though the Financial Ombudsman. Everything Ive read on this says that they must honour it (within the set guidelines), and comparing my case to the guidelines I meet the criteria on each point. 

 

Im worried now as if they can get out of it im sure they probably will !!! Actually thinking of it, I spoke to the trading standards team at citizens advice who told me I AM covered under s75. One thing I cant seem to find out is guidance on timescales, although one site said I should report to financial ombudsman if process exceeds 8 weeks.

 

Anyone have any clarification on this? Thanks 

[Surfer01]

Using S75 you claim the full amount which includes the deposit paid in cash.  I do not understand why you are panicking about the card supplier declining the claim when you have not even tried to make a claim?  When you get to that hurdle and if it does happen then come back on here but in the meantime do the claim using S75!

[Mottymotto1]

I have sent the cc the s75 claim form a few days back, but worried as I thought it was 100% guaranteed protection if within the criteria.

[king12345]

You'll eventually get your money via section 75, however,  banks are a law into themselves and we see this on cag everyday. 

So, given the amount, they could try and decline to see if you give up.

A lot of people accept what the bank says without questions,  same as ppi, if it says i didn't have ppi it must be true.

Banks know this and sometimes try it on.

That's one of the reasons there's a dedicated subforum here just for banks.

[Surfer01]

To add to the above, about 2 years ago I did a S75 claim with Barclaycard and it was rejected.  I persisted and they eventually paid out as I was able to offer proof however I had to go to the first stage of the Ombudsman.  You need to be pesistant. 

If your matter is escalated to the Ombudsman the card supplier has to pay a fee something like £500 to the Ombudsman so obviously they prefer to avoid this if they know they are in the wrong. 

From time I submitted the S75 claim until I got the refund was approximately 3 months and cost me zilch except time and postage.

[Mottymotto1]

I have called the CC company who have confirmed receipt of my paperwork and evidence. They have told me this usually takes 4 weeks but can take up to 8 weeks for an answer. I guess I'm expecting them to reject it, so will take them to court too if I have to (fed up with being fobbed off by responsible persons so gloves are off now).

I have spoken to Citizens advice who have advised me to go ahead with the small claim as well as the s75 so I have the forms which I have completed I just need to get my statement typed up, then I will be submitting the claim.

I do know someone in the legal profession who has advised me to write another "final letter" to the showroom with an extension of 2 more weeks to refund, but I feel this is playing into their hands as they appear to be trying to drag things out anyway, so not sure I will do this.

Thanks for all the info guys, I will be sure to update on here as things happen so that any other poor unfortunate souls who may be experiencing a similar issue may find the updates useful.

[Surfer01]

41 minutes ago, Mottymotto1 said:

I do know someone in the legal profession who has advised me to write another "final letter" to the showroom with an extension of 2 more weeks to refund, but I feel this is playing into their hands as they appear to be trying to drag things out anyway, so not sure I will do this.

Obviously a clerk working for a legal firm as very poor advice.  You are correct that giving them another two weeks is a waste of time and effort.

[Gick]

Have you sent them a Letter Before Claim? Unfortunately the thread is too long to read back to check!

 

It may well be that this is what your friend has suggested with a 14 day deadline, in which case it is good advice as the protocol requires this pre-action indication.

[Mottymotto1]

Yes I sent them this on 2nd March with a deadline of 16th March.

ironically just got a call from the showroom saying that they will give me a refund (not the deposit of £300 or additional costs), if I arrange with the garage to get the car back to them (approximately £700-£800 bill). I told them that they employed the garage not me, so they must pay the bill (the garage have sent them a letter to this effect too). He was suggesting on the phone that I had employed the garage and I reminded him that I did not authorise any of the work, they did, and that this was their bill (the garage is also charging them a daily holding fee too).

I told them it has gone too far now, and any info from them they must put in writing. His response was well I will leave that with the legal team then, so I replied I'm terminating the call now.

I cant understand why he is calling me with this as he is just reiterating a point made in their last email which I refused to accept in my final reply.

[king12345]

You are recording the calls, aren't you?

[Mottymotto1]

no, I was at work but I cut him off quick as soon as he started trying to go through "details" with me, I just said that I will not discuss this verbally, and he will need to put it in writing to me. At that point he told me he was leaving it with the legal team, and I said in terminating the call then hung up.

 

 

 

[king12345]

Next time don't answer and send them a reminder that all communication must be in writing.

[Peterbard]

Hmm, re Ombudsman

it seems like the dealer has to be a member of varios organisations in order to be bound by the various codes of practice

 

https://www.themotorombudsman.org/consumers/our-codes-of-practice/vehicle-sales-code