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    • Lastly, I will go to the site to get updated images, but from google earth, you can see from the pictures the entrance states it is for the hotel parking, which I follwed instructions and gave my details to the hotel. Where I think my car was parked (it was that long ago I'm not exactly sure) there are signs on the opposite wall, but it was 12.30am, pitch black and they could not be seen.
    • I was planning on collecting up other court cases they have lost, to refer to as part of my evidence, I'm not sure if this is worth doing or could just confuse matters? But there seem to be many where the judge has ruled against them because of confusing and not clearly displayed signage, trespass, as well as their charge being £100, which is more than the Bevis case said was reasonable.    A quick search found this article as one example KBT cornwall lose case article.pdf
    • OK, I will do now. I did look to black out certain things, but I was not sure what I should and should not redact and there was nothing on there that was personal enough for me to be concerned with being made public. So I am happy for all to view, but if you are kind enough to redact what is needed as per the forum rules, that would be amazing. Armtrak Defence documents_compressed.pdf
    • yes but have the landowner paid this years contract fee. no evidence they have in the ws. pop it back up now if you wish. the forum is quiet i'll redact it for you so we have the info.   dx  
    • Thank you all so much for taking the time to comment and help, I really do appreciate it.   Just to elaborate a bit more on the background, just because my lack of knowledge of the process might mean I've actually done things along the way that I did not know what they were and so hadn't mention it.    When they decided to go to court, I was offered mediation, which I took. I offered to pay the reduced rate, just to make it go away, but insisted it was not an admission of guilt, it was a goodwill gesture to save us all the effort of court. They refused and wanted £250.    A court date was set, but in Leeds, then a couple weeks later I received another letter saying it had been moved to London.   I was not aware I had any say in which court it would be held at, but I now understand i have good reason to request it is moved to a local one to me, which is also local to the offending place, I will call the court tomorrow and explain that. But so far I have only been told what is happening, I've not been given the choice for anything.   They seem to be going down the route of a contract breach, not trespass which is interesting. There is a document in the evidence which has the agreement between themselves which I assumed meant they can pursue me.    I am going to visit the site again shortly, at midnight the time of the offence and take pictures to build a case file of the route I took to enter the car park, how it is in the hotel grounds and no signs can be seen.    Am I right in saying, the fact they do not actually have any pictures of my car in the location they say it was in, just because all of the pictures they have were at 12/30am and it was pitch black, I am going to say my car was parked correctly in the hotel side, not on their land and it is then up to them to prove otherwise, which they are not able to do, because the burden of proof lies with the claimant I think?
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SavoyTruffle

EMC car sales of Bagshot - 30 Day Right To Reject - Vehicle Casualty Report

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Hi all,

I wonder if anyone can help with my question.

After having purchased a vehicle last Sunday,  it is found that the automatic gearbox will not change gear properly.

 

Long story short..

03/03: Collected car from dealer.

On 2 hour drive home, the car started lurching and jolting between gearchanges.

Occasionally changes we're so severe the excessive revs caused wheelspin at highway speeds.

 

04/03: Took car to local garage.

Advised to change gearbox oil as first possible remedy.

 

05 -06/03: Autobox oil changed.

No difference.

Also found several severe engine oil leaks.

Garage supplied an engineers report advising against driving the car.

Wrote formal Right to Reject email to supplier stating displeasure with the vehicle.

 

07/03: Supplier esponds asking for casualty report from gearbox specialist.

I supply the one from my local garage.

 

08/03: Supplier now demanding a report from gearbox specialist.

Standard garage report is not good enough for them.

 

My question:

Does the supplier have a right to demand a casualty report from a gearbox specialist ?

I can't drive the car due to safety reasons along with the fact I've rejected the car already.

 

Many thanks for any help!.

George 

 

 

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What the dealer decide to do and not do is his own business. It has nothing to do with you.

The dealer's responsibility is to make sure that he sells you a car which complies with all of your reasonable expectations which should be that it will be of satisfactory quality and remain that way for a reasonable period of time. Your dealer's responsibility is to give you 100% of what you can reasonably expect.
Your responsibility is to pay 100% of the money.

If you have asserted your right to reject under the consumer rights act in writing – then the next step is for the dealer to provide you with a refund – normally within seven days.

What is the name of the dealer?

Don't stand for any nonsense. We are getting too much of this where dealers then start to try and draw it out and then start carrying out short-term repairs – patching up the problem so that the whole saga draws out over months and nobody seems to be sure of where they stand any more.

You paid your money. You didn't get what you expected. You assert your short-term right to reject. You should now send a further warning giving him 14 days to provide you with your refund or else you will see in the County Court and without any further notice.

Don't make this threat without meaning to go ahead with it. Don't bluff.

Bringing county court claim is extremely easy. It's cheap and relatively risk-free and on the basis of what you say your chances of success in the court is much better than 95%.

So at the end of the day it comes down to this: what are you prepared to do about it?


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Many thanks.

The dealer is EMC car sales of Bagshot, Surrey.

 

I'm 100% willing to go in to this fully armed and to take it where it needs to go for a swift resolution.

 

I'm hopeful that it's the suppliers responsibility to collect the car.

Its complicated by the fact the car is in Kent at my work, but I'm at home in Scotland.

 

My work colleague has the keys, I have the documents.

I'm unsure as to when the car gets released.

Once the money has been transferred back to me ?

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It is unclear whose responsibility it is to get the car returned to the dealer – but it is clear that the dealer should cover all the costs involved.

I'm afraid that we get lots of cases where people for one reason or another have bought vehicles from dealers far away from them – and it always leads to complications.

Also there is a risk that if you returned the car to the dealer and then started to sue them and they suddenly went out of business, you would be left with no money and no vehicle. You have to be certain that the retailer that you are dealing with is secure enough that they won't suddenly disappear – or change their limited liability company name.

These are all reasons why you need to move quickly on this. Dealers will realise that you have got a vehicle on your hands which you are unable to use and you may even be obliged to keep it on the street paying insurance et cetera to keep it legal.

I would certainly write to the dealer and ask them to make arrangements to collect it. Even if they won't, it's important to show a paper trail and that you have tried to give the dealer reasonable opportunities to mitigate their loss.

If you do decide to return the vehicle yourself, then if it has to be done on a transporter then you need also to make sure that you've got a couple of quotes and that you have taken the cheapest one. It's all dreadfully complicated and of course customers who simply want to pay their money and get a decent deal, don't deserve this kind of thing.

This is the kind of reason why the second-hand car trade as such a rotten reputation.

By the way, you didn't tell us the value of the vehicle


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£3700 was the price paid by bank transfer for an E Class Mercedes.

I was told by the owner that they move 100 plus cars per week.

 

I'm feeling rather confident after your replies.

 I can only thank you again.

 

Is there any way I can also claim for travel costs etc?

It's been a nightmare logistically with no car as I live up beside John O Groats !

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Yes, it's no great skin off your nose to keep a log of all the costs which you have reasonably incurred by their breach – and to add it to your claim. Of course this will increase your claim fee and eventually it will be up to a judge whether or not to award everything you are asking for. However, you are obliged to mitigate your loss and that means that there is a certain responsibility on you to get an alternative form of transport if that would mean a saving and a reduction in the amount you are eventually claiming.

Also, another difficulty is that when you issue the claim for a particular figure – if the ancillary losses you are incurring are accumulating then it will be difficult to reflect that in the claim without eventually amending the claim figure. If you amend the claim figure then that effectively suspends the proceedings and gives the other side an opportunity to defend again.

I'm afraid that your story has all the ingredients that are required to cause problems – including, big distances, and Mercedes cars for £3700.


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In light of your advice above, I'll just stick with claiming back for the purchase price at the moment.

And yes, I'll be starting clear of that particular marque in future. I scratched an itch that ended up being a sore !

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There's no reason why you shouldn't add on all the expenses you have incurred until the date of the claim. Also, check the claim fees because they are tiered.

In other words there is a fee for £1000-£2000, £2000-£3000 – et cetera. (Those aren't the tiers but it is something like that). If you find that the purchase price plus all of your losses is towards the bottom of a tier then you could express your claim form as – £XXX purchase price plus £XXX losses incurred at date of claim plus continuing losses not exceeding total £XXX.

Total = purchase price + actual losses + continuing losses.

The idea is to get a figure at the top of the tier but which doesn't cost you any more claim fee.

When you draft your claim on the money claim website, it will probably be a good idea to indicate in the tick box that you will be sending further particulars of claim. I think you have to do this within seven days then make sure you complete a certificate of service. The particulars of claim can lay out a bit more detail – but keep it factual – avoid narrative – and also give you an opportunity to particularise your losses.


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Response from dealer today as follows.

Where do I stand.

Do I need to file a complaint with the Ombudsman prior to court proceedings ?

 

Quote

"We write further to your email of 8 March 2019.

 

1. If we go by the information provided by *** Garage Services, no fault codes were visible in the diagnostics and the car still drives. *** Garage Services advised that there is potential the issue worsens which is obvious for a ‘thirteen-year old’ car. In addition, there is no evidence that the gear box oil was replaced to Mercedes specifications which is crucial in this case.

 

2. In judging whether a recently bought ‘thirteen-year old’ car was of satisfactory quality it would be ‘reasonable’ to take account of the price you paid for the car. This could be far too less than for a new vehicle and so expectations should be lower. It would also be reasonable to assume that the performance might not be as good, and the condition could fall far short of new condition. For that reason, you have not judged in accordance with the standard and performance that was reasonable to expect in a similar car of that age, mileage and model.

 

3. We cannot agree that *** Garage Services report gives a right of rejection or rights pursuant to the consumer’s rights under the code or the CRA as being due because if you are asking for a refund under the 30 Day Right To Reject, the onus is on you to prove there is a fault, the fault is worthy of a refund and the fault was present at the time of sale.

 

4. We do not seem to be any closer to reaching an agreement. We do not believe either party will benefit from further exchanges of communications. Please register your complaint with The Motor Ombudsman: https://www.themotorombudsman.org/consumers/make-a-complaint

 

The Motor Ombudsman is a certified Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) provider, is fully impartial and listens to both sides to deliver consistently fair outcomes. If you decide to continue with a court claim without any consideration to The Motor Ombudsman’s Alternative dispute resolution (ADR) decision, we reserve the right to a cost order against you.

 

We refer you to the PREACTION CONDUCT AND PROTOCOLS: 11. If proceedings are issued, the parties may be required by the court to provide evidence that ADR has been considered. A party’s silence in response to an invitation to participate or a refusal to participate in ADR might be considered unreasonable by the court and could lead to the court ordering that party to pay additional court costs. Yours faithfully, EMC Car Sales– Complaints"

 

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The above demonstrates that they have no interest or understanding of CRA 2015. 

There is no need for you to escalate the issue to any Ombudsman as you have used the short term right which is in legislation passed by Parliament and not some Hokey Pokey Ombudsman. 

 

Now is the time to wade straight in, register a complaint with Trading Standards via CAB and at the same time start court proceedings as you have the law on your side plus of course help from CAG!

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Absolutely agree. The financial ombudsman is almost useless and limp wristed. These industry specific ombudsmen are even worse.

The dealer prefers that you go to the ombudsman. This means that it is in their interests and not in your interests.

Go to court

 


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I've been a bit delayed with this, as I've been home in Scotland.

 

Now back in Kent, I've had the car checked by an Automatic Gearbox Specialist, and they have confirmed the gearbox will need a £3000 rebuild after diagnosis.

 

I have the estimate for the work in my possession, and the Engineers report will be with me on Monday. 

 

I'm going in with a barrage of missiles now..

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Okay, have you sent a letter of claim?

Can you lay out here all of the costs/expenses that you intend to claim for.

If you don't have a figure then simply put £XXX.

Like to get a picture of your position


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If I can get back the 3.7k that I paid for the car, I'd be content. That said, I see no reason why my inconvenience and vain attempts at repairing this machine should not be taken into account.

 

£220: gearbox oil and filter change

£300: Turbo inlet pipe ( possible cause of gearbox problems. It wasn't)

£20: Diagnostic check

 

Little point in mentioning travel costs, as it would have cost me fuel money to get home had the car been driveable I guess.

 

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It's up to you. The more you try to claim (keeping it reasonable of course) then the more you have to give away if it comes to negotiation.

Did you send the letter of claim?


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Not yet,

 

Should I go ahead and do this prior to receiving the Engineers Report on Monday ?

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I suppose if you're prepared to be patient then you could wait for the report. On the other hand, you could simply issue a letter of claim and refer to the report and say that you will be forwarding it as soon as you have received it.

Maybe it will be better to wait a few days.


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Maybe so,

 

I'll draft the letter and send it all at once. Thanks again for the help.

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Thinking aloud before I send the Letter of Claim on Monday..

 

In an earlier letter, the car dealer made the following statement:

 

"Please arrange to return the vehicle to our premises for further investigation. We shall instruct a gearbox expert to confirm the casualty and liability. Alternatively, we are happy to consider another report provided that it is by a gearbox specialist"

 

Now that I have had this carried out, and will very soon have the information that they're happy to consider, should my next letter to them be threatening court action ? I have, as far as I can see, complied with their requirement thus far, and believe that I would have covered all bases in the Judge's eyes if and when court action goes ahead.

 

Surely I need to sent the conclusive engineers report to them first ? 

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  1. Well you could either ignore them and simply send the letter of claim.
  2. you could simply return the car as requested together with your own gearbox report and wait for them to respond.
  3. you could return the car as requested with the gearbox report and with a letter of claim and point out that they have 14 days to issue you with your refund or you will take action but in view of all the evidence you have provided them which is all consistent you are not prepared to allow this matter to drag on any further.


 


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Ok,

 

So I think the Letter of Claim in addition to the report is the way to go. As for returning the car to them, I'm fearful that I'd lose everything if I did this.  I have also fulfilled their alternative requirement as above.

 

As per previous advice,  I'm today preparing to report them to Trading Standards via the CAB.

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3 minutes ago, SavoyTruffle said:

Ok,

 

So I think the Letter of Claim in addition to the report is the way to go. As for returning the car to them, I'm fearful that I'd lose everything if I did this.  I have also fulfilled their alternative requirement as above.

 

 

I agree with you. This is what I would have chosen as well. Don't get dragged into any delays.


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One thing I have just noticed as I'm printing off all correspondence just now.

 

The dealer sold me the car with a "Plan 4" warranty.

 

After having contacted the warranty company, I've had it confirmed that the car is only eligible for a "Plan 3" warranty, which covers far less obviously.

 

This is due to age and mileage of the vehicle.

I have a receipt from the dealer to prove this.

 

Am I right in saying that this alone is grounds to return the vehicle ?

  I'm 100% sure I should at least mention it in my next letter.

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I'm not sure whether there is sufficient grounds to return the vehicle – but you have enough grounds anyway. However, no point in not mentioning it. It can only help you in the end.


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2 hours ago, Fred clause said:

Not after advice I have allready started my claim,

just letting savoytruffle know that thay aren't the only ones going through this with EMC car sales Bagshot and they are very similar stories.

 

Thanks Fred,

 

I doesn't surprise me that this is happening to others, and I'm very sorry to hear that you're going through the same situation as myself with the same dealer. It sounds like our cases are rather strong, so I believe that we'll be ok.

 

I'm still waiting for the engineers report from the specialist, and the wait is driving me crazy. I just want the whole sordid affair to be wrapped up and done with. One must keep ones head in these testing times I guess.

 

Do keep us updated as to your situation.

 

BR,

 

George

 

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