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    • Additionally, this case has some similarity to your own situation   but do make sure that you read up about the mediation stories elsewhere in the Hermes threads  
    • Please have a look at this thread which has some similarities to your own case   and in particular, have a look at the rather wordy assessment of the potential arguments for the forthcoming mediation    
    • Looking back over the thread I see You sent a laptop computer to a repairer using Hermes. This was in about August 2020 the laptop was worth £200 and you paid the Hermes insurance to cover it the laptop never arrived and eventually Hermes told you that it was lost. You put in a claim and Hermes refused to accept your claim and they also refused to honour the insurance contract Hermes suddenly changed their story and said that in fact the laptop had been damaged and therefore had been destroyed. They told you that because it was a laptop, it was on their prohibited items list and therefore was not covered by the insurance policy which they had sold you they have provided no evidence that the laptop was damaged – although it's not clear if you ask them for any evidence. You eventually issued proceedings they have defended on the basis that the laptop was damaged and that it was a prohibited item they have also suggested that the money you are claiming is beyond the level of the insurance cover of £200. In saying that the sum claimed is beyond the insurance cover, they have lumped together the court costs along with the value of the laptop.   I understand that you have a recording of a conversation where Hermes our first of all telling you on the telephone that the item is lost and then in the same conversation they go on to say that it has been damaged. Please can you confirm this. (It would be helpful if you could send a copy of this recorded conversation to ask confidentially at our admin email address please.) You are now set for mediation on Thursday. Have you read around the various threads here looking at other people's experience of the mediation process? I have to say that there is a definite suspicion with me that the item was lost all the time but because we have made such an issue that use of their prohibited items list to declined responsibility for a lost item is unfair and unenforceable – because it is an abuse of the concept behind prohibited items, that they then decided to say that it was damaged because that might be a sustainable argument for relying on their prohibited items list. Of course this would be a very serious piece of deception if it were true. Who knows if it's true? It's just a sense that this could be a possible scenario.   First of all, do make sure that you have read around the threads relating to the mediation process in relation to Hermes claims. There are several excellent summaries of how it all went and they tend to be similar enough to imagine that your mediation experience will follow broadly the same route. This means that in principle Hermes are prepared to pay you out something, but they will want to salvage their pride by getting you to compromise. Furthermore, the mediator will probably see it as a point of honour that they also managed to produce a solution in which you have compromised in some way. This may possibly mean that you are being asked to give up your court fees and accept simply the cost of the laptop. We would recommend very strongly that you stand your ground. You have an extremely strong case and if it went to court for a hearing by a judge, it is highly likely that the judge will find in your favour and you would have an excellent judgement which would probably be critical of Hermes and their systems and which we would then be pleased to publicise around the Internet. This means that Hermes has a lot to lose reputationaly and also if there was criticism of the use of the prohibited items list, this would be devastating for Hermes and I would envisage that we would be encourage a lot of people who had been denied a remedy so far to go back and claim retrospectively from Hermes. Your main points to the mediator will be: that first of all they spent several weeks telling you that the item was lost and it was only at the very end when they decided to rely on their prohibited items list that they suddenly changed their story and said that the item was damaged. You need to tell the mediator that you don't believe it and that you think that this is simply an excuse to deny compensation for the item which was really lost all the time. Tell the mediator that you will be putting this point to the judge and you will let the judge form their own conclusions but that you have no doubt that the judge will consider that in all probability Hermes are not being completely truthful. Tell the mediator that you understand very well that the use of a prohibited items list to deny liability for items which are lost is completely unfair and unenforceable and that is why Hermes switch their story to say that the item was damaged. Being a prohibited item could not affect at all the risk of the item being lost. There is no reason at all why it is more likely that a prohibited item is lost then any other item that Hermes carried. Tell the mediator also that Hermes are apparently asking for proof of the value of the laptop. Tell the mediator that you want Hermes to prove that it was damaged and that if they cannot do this you will be asking them to provide their evidence in court. Tell the mediator that the judge will agree that they should provide evidence of the damage and that as you are quite sure that there is no evidence of the damage, that the judge will agree with you that this is simply an excuse to avoid liability. In any event, the laptop was properly declared as a laptop and not only that Hermes were happy to sell you insurance for it. Tell the mediator that even if the item was on the prohibited items list, the fact that they knew that it was a laptop and your undertook to deliver it. The fact that they knew that it was a laptop and agreed to ensure it means that even if the prohibited items list might normally be binding, in this case the second of/collateral contract of insurance demonstrated that being a prohibited item was no longer part of the contract. Tell the mediator also, that when you enter into a contract with Hermes through their website, the prohibited items list is not prominent and also the list is so extensive – more than 70 items – that it is impossible really to go through it all and to understand. On the other hand, the insurance proposal is much more prominent – and this is clearly because Hermes want to make money out of the insurance and the prohibited items list is really a full-back device to allow them to escape liability if they can. Tell the mediator that it is clear that Hermes are very happy to take people's insurance money and then later on refuse to honour the insurance for any spurious ground that they can come up with.   Now we have to deal with the issue of the recording. It would be very helpful if you would let us have a private confidential copy of this recording so we can understand exactly what has been said. However, you should understand that you are completely entitled to record conversations. There is nothing against the law. However, there would be difficulty if you try to publish it or to make it available for non-legitimate purposes. In this case, our view is that if you needed it in a court case then you would be entitled to use it – although you would have to ask the permission of the judge first. I think you should refer to the recording and tell the mediator that you have a recording of Hermes telling you that the item was lost and then changing their mind and tell you that it was damaged but it was prohibited. Hermes will try to say that it is unlawful for you to have taken the recording. Hermes will also try to say that you would not be allowed to use the recording in court. I can imagine that the mediator themselves will not understand what the rules are for privately recorded conversations. The position is this. You are entitled to use the recording for your own private purposes – and this includes for a court proceeding. To use the recording in court you would have first to ask the judge for permission. However, there is nothing against you making a transcript of the recording – in other words making a written record of the sound recording and producing that in court. I think you should make it clear to Hermes and also the mediator – if the mediator seems to be telling you that the recording is unlawful – that you disagree and that at the end of day it is a matter for the judge. Tell the mediator that you will only need to use the recording if Hermes denies what has been said on the recording. In other words if they tell a different story – which is clearly not true. In that case, I think you will have little difficulty in persuading the judge to listen to the recording. Your argument would be that Hermes are about to give a different version of events and which is untrue and which is in fact misleading the court. You would say to the judge that in this case, the judge should grant you permission to produce the recording court to show that Hermes is misleading the court. Tell the mediator that it is on this basis that you will reuse the recording. Tell the mediator that if Hermes will agree that the recording is true and will confirm the conversation that was held and that they did say that the item was lost and that eventually they change their mind and said it was damaged, then you will not need to produce a recording in court because there will be no dispute over the conversation. You will need to be very assertive about all of this because you will come up against resistance both from Hermes – and probably the mediator. I suggest that you start making a transcript of the recording – maybe you would like to publish that here. There is no problem about this. And once again, it would be helpful to hear the recording ourselves if you would forward it to us in confidence. Also, you can tell the mediator that if they recording is accepted into evidence and the judge listens to it, it then enters the public domain and you will be entitled to distribute it over social media. At the end of the day, Hermes are likely to offer you the entire value of the laptop and they will try to withhold your court fees. There is absolutely no reason for you to accept this compromise – and you should tell the mediator that you refuse to compromise and that you want everything. Tell the mediator that the benefit to Hermes is that it will not go any further and they will avoid a judgement against them and they will avoid exposure in the court and in the public domain. For Hermes, that would be a big win. Please let us know if you have any questions  
    • HI DX   I didn't report the matter to the ICO because Barclays apologised for passing the account on to the DCA and compensated for their error. I did recall the account being terminated by the CCA notice in 2008 but could not find it. The bank, therefore disagreed that the account was statute barred from 2014. I sent a DSAR for copies of termination notices etc,  but the bank could not locate anything. The account was always "live" until the settled status in 2019. Settled accounts stays on ones file for a further 6 years after a settled status, the consequence is a 17 year hit of negative data.   PW
    • Thanks TOR. Funnily enough I came across that very complaint last night whilst browsing. I have no doubt that I have a good case for ombudsman. If I was continuing paying this by the time I finish I will have paid 8600 or thereabouts for a loan of 2000. Absolutely shocking. I know for the most part it is made clear at the start but I was desperate. My weekly payment is 50 and last week I offered 150 per week as my bf was going to try help me.I told them in the complaint that 150 was not even affordable to me but to try and clear the loan ASAP I was getting other help. They rejected 150 per week which is shocking also. 
  • Our picks

    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
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    • Hermes lost parcel.. Read more at https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/422615-hermes-lost-parcel/
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fake 16 plus oyster used it for a year - court summons


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Hi everyone, 

As many others on this forum, I made the completely stupid mistake of purchasing a fake 16+ oyster card.

I used it for approx a year when the ticket inspector on the bus approached me and asked for my D.O.B ect.

 

She took down my details and I received the letter from tfl that everyone else typically receives.

I responded with remorse and my genuine naivety to how serious this situation was.

This happened back in mid Jan btw. I

 

purchased the card at my old workplace, a colleagues friend was creating them and he was selling them to a few of us at work.

he promoted it as this casual thing but i'm taking full responsibility. 

 

I have not received the court summons yet but i am certainly expecting it.

I have read a few other threads religiously regarding fake 16+ oyster cards and their court summons were prosecuting with the railway act.

 

I am very stressed that although other people have received their prosecutions with the railway act, that tfl would give me one for fraud instead.

I'm not too sure if tfl have ever prosecuted for fraud?

 

Also, I apologise if I appear too nonchalant about all of this, I have been extremely anxious ever since this happened, I cry about it at least once a week and it is most definitely a lesson learned. I'm 21 and have never even been in trouble at school let alone legally.

I would appreciate some advice in this matter please.

 

I am worried about a different thing every week but now it would be a borderline blessing to plead guilty to the railway act as opposed to fraud as I really do not want to go to prison :( 

 

I've really really messed up here. It's my first offence ever. 

So my questions are; 

 

- Can I be prosectuted for fraud instead of the railway act? 

 

- Is the inspector in court?

 

- Could I go to prison?

 

- How do you pay the fine typically? On the day?

 

Thank you guys in advance.

I am so appreciative of your advice you've given to others on forums like these, they've kept me from going insane!! 

 

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You cant goto prison

they dont/cant prosecute for fraud

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thank you for your reply dx, do you know if the inspector is actually in court on the day? I researched that the inspector only shows up as a potential witness if you plead not guilty but I was just wondering if you could confirm? :) 

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I plan to attend court but I do have crippling anxiety already in regards to this whole situation and suffer from panic attacks.

 

I'm worried because I am thinking that for my mental health it may be better to plead guilty by post but I do want to show the court in person how remorseful I am to lower the fine. 

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you always attend plead guilty in person.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi, I wanted to ask if there was anyway of being dismissed by my current job due to this record? Can an employer find this out, would they be notified any way? I just work a basic sales job btw.

Edited by steph1092
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Depends on your job.

I noticed you replied to the letter from TFL.  If you havent had anything back yet,  dont go thinking there will be a court summons. They might allow you to settle out of court if youve used other threads as guidance.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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I very much doubt I'll be able to settle OOC in my case, I have given up all hope.

 

The other threads I read have been refused OOC.

I was caught with the 16+ on the bus by an inspector but I know people that had their oysters just randomly stop working, also have a friend who was called by TFL as they noticed an inconsistency in his applications and was told to stop using it or a summons would be sent.

 

I don't have dodgy friends at all, but I can't stress how common these 16+ oyster cards are, a ton of people have them unfortunately. 

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never say never.  Wait for the next letter. If you go to court, so be it.   Just be honest.     

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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Yeah I certainly will. Do you have any idea of the impact of the record? If it's spent after a year does that mean it will stop showing up on DBS checks after that? 

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks dx, i've been doing a crazy amount of research in regards to the criminal record side of this. (yes I know I haven't recieved a court summons yet and I'm truly going to fight for an OOC settlement but I am just preparing myself for the worst)

 

I just wanted to ask if my criminal record would be on fare evasion only?

or does it differ to your situation?

 

Like for example when wanderwall uploaded his/hers court letter I did not understand what he was being charged against?

It says "Contrary to regulations 7 (b) (ii) conduct of drivers, inspectors, conductors & passengers. Regulations 1990 SI No. 1020 and contrary to section 25(3) of the public passengers vehicle act 1981.

 

Is this the typical thing people get charged for on their court summons?

Because I thought it would be the TfL Byelaws or Railways Act 1889 and or the Regulation of Railways Act 1889?

 

Im confused and worried about this since me and WW are pretty much in the same boat (except I didn't run away from the inspector )

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it will be on the court summons

does differ

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Okay now I'm scared because I doubt they can issue imprisonment on the more common acts like byelaws or RORA but I don't know about the ones that WW was issued so i'm currently petrified lol

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haha

you cant goto prison for a rail debt

stop panicking.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 2 months later...

Okay received the court summons on Friday as expected, I am attending court on the 26th of next month.

 

I don't know if I will even bother calling TFL's offices in hopes of an OOC settlement because I really don't have mitigating circumstances.

 

I haven't even been in trouble with my school teachers let alone the law.

I naively made a very stupid mistake of following what everybody else was doing which I feel terrible about now.

 

I am going to try to speak to the prosecutor on the day but again I don't have very high hopes with that either.

I am being convicted on the same charges as Wanderwall. 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to fake 16 plus oyster used it for approx a year - legal trouble

so not fraud then..that's good

 

you sent a pleading letter?

what has happened since then?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Yeah super happy and grateful for that, they easily could've prosecuted for fraud

 

And I sent a pleading letter when they first asked me to plead my case but no I haven't gotten in contact with them since I received the summons on Friday. I don't even know if I should try tbh, I don't think it's going to go anywhere but obviously, I do not want a criminal record in the slightest so I am going to try calling and speaking to the prosecutor on the day.

 

In the meantime, I will attend court in person. When it comes to payment, do you have any idea of how that works dx? Do I pay on the day at the actual courthouse with my bank card or do I pay online? 

 

Oh also, the oyster was used for 128 uses. So, my chances are just that much slimmer lol

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are they actually stating 128 uses?

in the summons

 

payment should be made on the day 

the judge / clerk will tell you how

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • dx100uk changed the title to fake 16 plus oyster used it for a year - court summons
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