Found Natwest/Shooes CCJ after a series of varying Tomlin Orders

[Rustybike10]

Hi all.

ok, need some help with this one.

 

Our business (Ltd Co) folded in 2013, and left us with a large (£20k) debt from the overdraft that we had to personally guarantee.

The bank chased us for a while but eventually turned it over to Shoosmiths who have chased us ever since.

We had a lot of complaints which slowed things down, and eventually became so tired of it all we agreed to pay it off monthly as we couldn’t afford to settle it all.

 

We had agreed a Tomlin order,

one was sent for us to sign,

but had someone else’s details on it.... bit naughty.

 

Another corrected one was sent,

signed,

and sent back with a direct debit.

 

We then had a letter to say it wasn’t signed,

we phoned stating it was,

they agreed,

but for the next two months letters came saying it was unsigned,

saying they “may” enter judgement against us.

 

The one thing we wanted to avoid was a CCJ.

Turns out it wasn’t signed on the front page (wasn’t clear where to sign, usually you only need to sign once).

 

Then we had a letter dated March 30th,

received on 5th April 2017,

saying the amount on the Tomlin Order amount was incorrect,

and we had to sign a new one and send back.

That had to get to them by the 6th April.

 

I phoned them immediately,

as I knew it wouldn’t get there in time,

and we were extended by 14 days to get it to them.

 

I sent it recorded the next day (since lost the reciept), and haven’t heard a thing since.

 

Now,

they’ve taken DD payments every month since Jan 2017,

but.... in July 2018 we discovered a CCJ against us on credit file.

 

Turns out they applied to court May 2017,

went to court Sept 2017,

and were granted CCJ Feb 2018.

 

They claim they never received the new Tomlin Order,

which has triggered it.

 

Now,

we were COMPLETELY unaware of this happening,

and furious that we hadn’t been informed of this.

 

I deeply suspect all the correspondence was sent to our old address,

which is what’s on the claim form was from April 2016.

 

Can anyone help with some info?

 

we have no ides where to turn,

we’ve trawled the net,

there’s some good info,

and some conflicting.

 

I am considering making an offer of full & final,

but think I need to get aside too.

Edited January 2, 2019 by dx100uk
spacing

[dx100uk]

moved to legal forum and retitled.

 

lets resit things here so we know what we are dealing with.

 

so you had a limited by guarantee company

but the bank 'made' you sign a per guarantee?

was this WHEN the business took the OD out 1st, or after it failed?

not sure story is confusing.

 

also, why oh why did you blindly converse with shooes?

biggest bunch of ..out there, hope this wasn't by phone and you've now no written records?

 

who were shoo's clients? [claimants on the CCJ?}

a fleecing DCA that the OD under this sceptically legal PG was sold too?

or was it a bank themselves.

 

 

need far more details to be able to unravel and help here.

[Rustybike10]

Yes, directors guarantee, signed when account was opened. Of course, no one expects to get into trouble. Client is NWest

[AndyOrch]

As they have taken payments every month since Jan 2017,...then obviously they had received it.....and still taking payments ?

 

Ring Shoos and inform them to set it a side at their own cost or that you intend to set it aside...there is a Tomlin Order in place and you have not breached the terms of the order..as reflected in your payments.

 

If they wont agree submit an N244 and apply to set it aside on the basis that it was settled pursuant to a Tomlin Order dated xxxxx ..and request costs of the application.

 

Update them with your new address whilst your at it and also update the court.

 

 

Andy

[Rustybike10]

They’ve taken payments every month, we’ve not missed a payment.

Statement to prove from them too.

 

The Tomlin order, the initial one Jan 2017, isn’t live?

It’s not fully signed, and amount is wrong.

 

The second, corrected one they sent they claim they never got, which i think is why CCJ was applied for.

 

They’ve also got new address, and have had it since Dec 2016, which is bizarre, but I suspect they may have used old one deliberately?

 

It’s all a bit sneaky I suspect, and whilst the debt isn’t my biggest worry, the CCJ is, it’s really making life difficult.

I can’t even get into a new electric contract at home without a cash up front security.

 

Also... I’m tempted to phone in, and see if they’ve got a copy of that “missing” order, and get them to email it to me.

Edited January 3, 2019 by dx100uk
merge/space

[AndyOrch]

They are taking payment...the Tomlin Order authorises that payment...so which ever one they wish to rely on ...they are relying on one or the other...how else would they get your bank details for the direct debit ?

 

Also inform them that you will inform the court that they are using your old address to correspond....whilst having your new address since Dec 2016

[Rustybike10]

So, what you’re saying is, that order is the only legal authority they have to take my funds? Without it they can’t take a penny?

[AndyOrch]

Correct...when you agree a Tomlin Order it consists of the schedule (the terms of the order) and a mandate to authorise payment from your bank......they have taken payments....therefore they have agreed the Order....whether they have had it sealed and approved at the court is another matter..which I assume they have not otherwise they couldnt get judgment without informing you that you had breached the Tomlin Order.

 

The Court would have sent you notice of judgment ..I assume to your old address..in May 2017...again they have failed to inform the court of the correct address (as you have also failed to inform them)...but they have deceived you knowingly..the court possibly not intentionally....they took payments and never submitted the amended Tomlin Order.

 

And judging from all the errors in drafting the Tomlin Order..the above would seem very plausible ?

[Rustybike10]

No Judgement or anything received from court.

 

As for the old address, Shoos have definitely had that for a considerable time before they applied to the court.

 

I’ve got several letters, all dated that are in the new address, so proof they have and have used it, they’ve neglected to inform the court.

 

As I thought.... all a bit sneaky.

 

So who are Shoosmiths?

I was under the belief they were working for the bank, have they bought the debt for £x pence in the £?

[AndyOrch]

Give Shooes a ring tomorrow and ask why are they taking payment and have been since Jan 2017 and yet requested judgment in May 2017 ?

 

If they state it was never received then ask how they processed payment vis a Direct Debit ?

 

Ask why are they writing to your old address given they have had your new address since Dec 2016 ?

 

Then follow my advice as per post #4 above

[AndyOrch]

Shoos Solicitors act for RBS/Nasty Vest...your Bank ?

 

No they have not bought the debt......RBS/NAT W do not assign debts.

[Rustybike10]

The DD mandate was with the first one, so I’ll guess they are working from that one.

I’ll give this some thought, then contact them and see where it goes.

 

Thanks for all your help.

[Rustybike10]

**Update**

 

After some back and forth phone calls,

they have raised an “official complaint” on the matter.

 

It would appear, after talking to them, they have slipped up in the process regarding payments/orders/paperwork.

 

I’ve asked them to set aside at their cost and get us back to square one so we can adequately defend our position.

 

Annoyingly, this is going to take some time, and I’ve made them aware there may be a future complaint for compensation from the hardship the CCJ has caused.

It’s even made it difficult to change energy supplier!

 

Will keep posting updates as we get them.

 

Thanks in advance for all your help Andyorch.

Edited January 9, 2019 by dx100uk
spacing

[Rustybike10]

I’ve posted here before but now need to get further help.

 

We had a Ltd Co business collapse in 2013 owning £21k on an overdraft with NatWest.

We had signed a directors agreement for the OD so can’t get out of it.

The Ltd Co was struck off in 2014.

 

NW have pursued us since for the £21k, and in 2015 passed it to Shoosmiths, and the6 have pursued us since for it.

After lots of complaints, and paperwork back and forth, and at the point Shoos said they would take us to court, we caved in, TBF we’d just had enough, and agreed to a Tomlin order. 

 

After the wrong docs were sent to us (someone else’s!) in Jan 2017 we signed the TO and sent back with a mandate agreeing to pay back @ £180 p/month.

 

Shoos sent a letter in Feb 17 to say it hadn’t been signed, which we ignored.

Mar 17 saw another letter saying it hadn’t been signed, I phoned them and sure enough we hadn’t signed one of the pages.

They asked me to sign and send back.

 

We delayed doing this, and end of Mar 17 saw another letter saying we needed to sign a new TO because the amounts were wrong on the previous one. This was dated 30 Mar17. It gave us 7 days to send it back or they “may” be instructed to file against us in court, (CCJ).  

 

I received this on 5 Apr17, it had to be back to them on 6 Apr17,

I phoned and said there was no way we could get it to them next day, they said sign it, send it back, keep making payments.

 

Payments had been made form Feb17 to this day.

We signed fully the TO and sent back (recorded).

We heard nothing else from Shoos.

 

In May17 they sent forms for affordability analysis for us to fill and send which we did. 

 

Now, in July18, I get a ping from my credit file agency to say something had changed on my file.

I checked to find a CCJ on my record dated Feb18. I enquired where and why, it was Shoos, because we hadn’t signed and sent TO. They filed with court May17, went to court Sept17, were granted judgement Feb18. 

 

I received nothing from Shoos about this, and nothing from Court.

Shoos had my current address, so did the court, I suspect it was sent to our old address.

 

Now, I’ve enquired and gathered info on this since Aug18, and been back & forward with Shoos, complaints etc, and nothing has been forthcoming. I have a response pack with new correspondence address on it dates Sept16.

 

Shoos state the claim was issued to your last known address in accordance with the Civil Procedure Rules Part 6.9(2)1. to try and shrug it off, I don’t think this is right at all.

 

Now, I need to know where I stand.

I have no proof of the recorded TO I sent, they say they never received it, and say tough luck, and completely wash their hands of it all.

 

I’ve pulled them up on the address issue, they say it’s our responsibility to inform the court of address change, bizarre seeing I didn’t even know it was going to court. 

 

The one thing I need to do is get rid of this CCJ, ASAP, but need help and advise as to where I stand.

I wanted to avoid a CcJ at all costs as this would restrict lots of things like energy bills, bank accounts, work etc, one reason why we opted for the TO, to stay any action. 

 

Funds have been taken every month to date without fail.

Legally, once notified of the Judgement, we had 30 days to act, to avoid the CCJ ie by paying it off in full.

We had no opportunity to do this.

Shoos say tough luck, take it up with the court.

 

We’ve put an offer of £8k to NW as full and final but it’s been rejected by Shoos.

 

I believe they think they have us boxed into a corner, and the only option is to complain to the court, they’ll ask us to pay to get it set aside on the address issue, and we’ll have to clear it in full (about £16k).

 

what, legally, are our issues?

Where do we stand now?

This CCJ is crippling us.

 

Any help will be very appreciated.

[AndyOrch]

Threads merged...please keep to one thread per topic

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

So the key to this mess is what date did you advise the court of your correct address ?

[Rustybike10]

We didn’t. We contacted Shoos and supplied them with new address. 

However, we have a copy of the original response pack, and this states under the acknowledgment of service, our new address for all documents about this claim to be sent to. This is dated 1 Sept 2016.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Rustybike10

[AndyOrch]

As per post #4 then but just make the application yourself......set a sides are more successful if made promptly..I did advise over 2 months ago Rusty.

[Rustybike10]

Set aside on what grounds, sent to wrong address?

As they have taken payments every month since Jan 2017,...then obviously they had received it.....and still taking payments ? 

Yes - taken payments every month.

 

Ring Shoos and inform them to set it a side at their own cost or that you intend to set it aside...there is a Tomlin Order in place and you have not breached the terms of the order..as reflected in your payments.

ive rung them, they still say the TO is not live as it wasn’t signed properly, and irrelevant that payments have been taken as they’re not linked to it. They will not set aside at their cost, and insist the matter is closed.

 

If they wont agree submit an  N244 and apply to set it aside on the basis that it was settled pursuant to a Tomlin Order dated xxxxx ..and request costs of the application.

 This is my last resort but it’ll mean to avoid the CCJ I’ll have to pay the entire debt which I don’t have?

Update them with your new address whilst your at it and also update the court.

Is it my legal responsibility to do this?

[AndyOrch]

1 hour ago, Rustybike10 said:

Set aside on what grounds, sent to wrong address? Yes if you have proof they were aware of your new address

As they have taken payments every month since Jan 2017,...then obviously they had received it.....and still taking payments ? 

Yes - taken payments every month. And yes also on the basis that a Tomlin Order was agreed 

 

Ring Shoos and inform them to set it a side at their own cost or that you intend to set it aside...there is a Tomlin Order in place and you have not breached the terms of the order..as reflected in your payments.

ive rung them, they still say the TO is not live as it wasn’t signed properly, and irrelevant that payments have been taken as they’re not linked to it. They will not set aside at their cost, and insist the matter is closed.It is linked the bank mandate was used that was  part of the Tomlin

 

If they wont agree submit an  N244 and apply to set it aside on the basis that it was settled pursuant to a Tomlin Order dated xxxxx ..and request costs of the application.

 This is my last resort but it’ll mean to avoid the CCJ I’ll have to pay the entire debt which I don’t have? You wont you revert the agreed schedule within the tomlin order....which you are already making set payment 

Update them with your new address whilst your at it and also update the court.

Is it my legal responsibility to do this? Yes otherwise you end up in the mess you are now

 

[Rustybike10]

I've rather unfairly picked up a CCJ from a business overdraft debt that's been going on for years.

 

I had court claim forms in 2014 which I managed to stave off.

and again in sept 2016.

 

This time I've acknowledged the service,

filling in what I thought was the correct amount I thought I owed.

 

I've since had the personal guarantee paper copies in my possession and I owe £21K.

I sent them back along with a new address for all correspondence to be sent to,

and then agreed to a Tomlin order to pay debt off monthly. 

 

Now, these were sent back and forth and eventually signed, but apparently only partially.

So DD was set up at same time, in Jan 2017.

over next couple of months we paid, and also go letters to sign new Tomlin which we ignored as it was signed.

 

In March we got another TO with 7 days to sign it and send back.

We had one day to get this to them and phoned to say it wouldn't be there,

that's ok they said,

we'll extend it,

just keep paying and send it back asap,

we did send recorded (since lost receipt).

 

We assumed they'd got it, and didn't hear a peep from them.

Until July 18, when I found id got a CCJ from Feb that year.

 

I've logged a complaint with solicitor, and had a response, they are denying any knowledge of anything.

They had no TO so took it to court without my knowledge. 

I didn't think there was anything I can do.

 

However, as it turns out, the court sent papers to an old address even though solicitor had new address for 13 months, and address for correspondence was on the claim papers I sent back.

 

Upon closer inspection the numbers are all wrong too, nor a lot but its about £200 adrift.

We called their office too within the 30 day notice period, oddly they have no record of that. 

 

And all this is on a "Business Charge Card Guarantee" …. anyone explain that??

In the mean time we've paid £5K+ of the debt off.

At no point did anyone in the process let us know we'd had the CCJ logged against us.

Is that right??

Or legal?

 

I was intending to get it set side, but was told by them it was pointless.

 

Just want to get back to point A.

Paying it isn't the problem, it getting the CCJ reset.

 

Please Help!!! 

[AndyOrch]

Thread moved to Financial Legal Issues Forum...please continue to post here to your thread.

 

So the Judgment was dated  May 2017 on a claim dated  Sept 2016 which you acknowledged service ...but did you submit a defence ?

 

Andy

[dx100uk]

who was the debt with

and who has taken you to court/agreed all these TO's?

 

more details please

 

dx

 

[Rustybike10]

No defence filed, didn't know it was happening. We admitted the claim, although the correct amount wasn't on the form. 

We thought they'd received the TO and all was well.

They sneaked this in the back door without informing us, and used one of their last letters that stated "we may be instructed to file judgement against you" within it as their notice to us. Annoyingly wed been paying every month before this happened, and every month since, never missed a beat.

They claim because the TO wasn't signed, their client (NW) had no protection.... when in reality they could just go back to court. 

 

All Nat**st through Sh***miths solicitors.

 

The claim form amount, the TO amounts and their balance to us are al different too. Claim form amount is adrift by almost £200.

[AndyOrch]

The fee for a Tomlin Order is £100 so obviously they have added that in even though they have not utilised or actioned the Consent.

 

Quote

No defence filed, didn't know it was happening. 

 

Obviously you did otherwise you wouldn't of submitted an acknowledgment of Service.You shouldnt of admitted the claim as that will result in an auto CCJ for the amount admitted irrespective of any ongoing Agreement with regards to a Tomlin Order.

 

Did you admit to the correct amount and disputed the unknown amount on the  N9A ?

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/688727/n9a-eng.pdf

 

Andy