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In scotland - claiming via English courts.


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We are about to make a claim against HSBC although account opened and maintained in Scotland. I would rather not maintain 2 threads but I thought this would be of interest to other Scottish based members. The link is

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1342

 

The reasons for following this route are as follows -

 

1. claim well above the £750 limit requiring multiple claims in Scotland

 

2. I spoke to somone at Glasgow Sheriff court recently and they suggested I could try and lodge a claim in England. He said if it came under 'Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982' then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

3. I believe this has already been done by another member who hopefully will confirm this via the forum.

 

4. Apparently you do not need an English address.

 

Although - I have read quite a bit about the 'Civil Jurisdiction and Judgments Act 1982' it perhaps be worth anyone with a bit of legal expertise commenting. In particular, it would be good to know if I should mention this in my initial correspondence.

 

Quick other question - when should the 'preliminary' letter be used over the 'letter before action' ?

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Great. This is information that we badly need. Please keep us updated on what happens.

As far as prelim letter, can you post this in your thread and we'll reply there.

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Great. This is information that we badly need. Please keep us updated on what happens.

As far as prelim letter, can you post this in your thread and we'll reply there.

 

Will do.

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Dont think it is all that easy but certainly it would seem possible to claim through the Eglish Courts. I spoke to Money Claim today and they told me it couldnt be done through them which directly contradicts what they told me before.

 

I then spoke to a County Court and they told me it was possible but not an easy thing to do. You would defiately need legal assistance. The process is more complicated than a standard small claim and also when a judgement is made against a scottish company there are some issues regarding enforcment of the judgements.

 

More information is definately required here I think.

 

Woolfie

Advice & opinions given by Woolfie are my own, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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If, sorry when we need to file an action it will be done manually and not through moneyclaim, they do require an address in England.

 

HSBC is not a Scottish company so I'm no trying to sue a Scottish company in the English courts just to avail myself of the better small claims procedure. I'm choosing to do it on their patch.

 

Another member has told me privately that he has done this already, albeit not with HSBC but another English based bank, that it was not too difficult and that the clerks at the county courts are quite helpful with the forms etc. Once he has everything completely settled I think he will post but he cannot do that at the moment.

 

I think, but need to check, that you still use the N1 form but post it out to the relevant court.

 

Just one other thing, although the banks will hold previous addresses I'd be very suprised if they held an indicator on an account to say which law applied when it was opened. And as I think I asked in earlier post - Are all the banks going to check every claimant on the off chance they come under Scottish law?

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I am sure your right with regard to English based banks.

 

I notice on the standard RBOS T&C's that any application of law will be under Scots Law as quoted below.

 

Governing Law

33 The terms and conditions of use of this website are governed by the laws of Scotland and any dispute regarding this website shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of the Scottish court.

I have had a look at the t&c's for their other products and they read much the same.

Advice & opinions given by Woolfie are my own, and are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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You know if the Banks have an English address as their registration address which the majority of them do, you can bring the action down here. I.e if they are registed with the FSA with their HQ address (invariably an english address)

 

Plus you might find that the banks saved you a lot of bother by putting in the small print that English law prevails.

 

A lot of firms do that.

If the name of the claim is blue and underlined, click it to see how I did it.

  • Halifax - 1st Request for £3748.80 sent 10/06 Settled in full and 5% donated


  • Goldfish - Unable to comment further, have a read


  • Lloyds - Data Protection Act sent 19/04 1st estimated request for £1500 sent15/08 LBA sent 08/09


  • Carphone Warehouse - Data Protection Act sent 19/04 Chased 04/07 ICO complaint 18/07


  • First National - 1st Request for £280 sent 05/05 Settled in full and 5% donated


  • Yes car credit - LBA sent 19/07 Court Action launched 26/09


  • HFC Bank - 1st Request for £100 sent 06/06 Settled in full and 5% donated


Like what I said? Hit the scales on the top right of my post. Cheers

 

Disclaimer - By giving advice, I am not putting myself across as a legal expert. Always seek professional advice.

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So what court is the case heard in, if HSBC is in Leeds is that where case is heard, or to save travelling do we Scots lodge claims in Berwick on Tweed?

Don\'t let the B**tards grind you down

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If HSBC are in Leeds you should file your claim at Leeds County Court (it might be Skipton County Court).

 

As far as I can tell there are two conflicting rules, which you can use to your advantage. On the one hand, you're supposed to sue in the court nearest the Defender. On the other hand, as a consumer you're entitled to sue in the court nearest you. I've done both and not noticed any particular difference (since they never defend it anyway).

 

They can of course challenge the jurisdiction, but to do that they have to actually put in a defence and attend court, which will cost them between £1000 and £2000 in legal fees, with no prospect of getting it back because it will be small claims. (If you think your lawyer charges you a lot, you should see what he charges your bank!)

  • Confused 2

Robertxc v. Abbey - £3300 Settled in full

Robertxc v. Clydesdale - £750 Settled in full

Nationwide v. Robertxc - £2000 overdraft wiped out, Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Style Card - Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Abbey (1) - Data Protection Act action. £750 compensation

Robertxc v. Abbey (2) - Data Protection Act action. £2000 compensation, default removed

 

The opinions on this post are those of Robertxc and not necessarily the opinions of the group and do not constitute sound legal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice.

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The fun begins.

 

We got an email back from HSBC, in answer to first letter - I was going to post it but there is a disclaimer at the bottom saying it may be 'legally privileged' and we should not cut or past it or disclose it any way.

 

Anway it just basically just gives us a case number and says they are investigsting and will reply more fully once that has been done.

 

Do I just ignore it and issue letter number 2 on the appropriate date ?

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Absolutely. Your claim, your timescale. You've given them a deadline, so stick to it no matter what. Also, never, ever agree to discuss it on the phone (they might try this). Any call centre monkey you are ever likely to speak to has zero chance of having the authority to refund this sort of cash - so don't waste your time.

  • Confused 1

Robertxc v. Abbey - £3300 Settled in full

Robertxc v. Clydesdale - £750 Settled in full

Nationwide v. Robertxc - £2000 overdraft wiped out, Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Style Card - Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Abbey (1) - Data Protection Act action. £750 compensation

Robertxc v. Abbey (2) - Data Protection Act action. £2000 compensation, default removed

 

The opinions on this post are those of Robertxc and not necessarily the opinions of the group and do not constitute sound legal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice.

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I thought of this just the other day (before I had joined this board). You also note that by doing this you can get 6 years statute limitations rather than the 5 you get in scotland.

 

In actua fact I was thinknig about doing this against BOS/Halifax and RBOS. As they both have places of business in England I believe the English courts will accept Jurisdiction.

 

Cheers

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In actua fact I was thinknig about doing this against BOS/Halifax and RBOS. As they both have places of business in England I believe the English courts will accept Jurisdiction.

I think you'll be unlikely to get away with it. you're supposed to serve the summons on their registered office, which for both these banks is in Edinburgh. Your only other option is to get an English mailing address.

Robertxc v. Abbey - £3300 Settled in full

Robertxc v. Clydesdale - £750 Settled in full

Nationwide v. Robertxc - £2000 overdraft wiped out, Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Style Card - Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Abbey (1) - Data Protection Act action. £750 compensation

Robertxc v. Abbey (2) - Data Protection Act action. £2000 compensation, default removed

 

The opinions on this post are those of Robertxc and not necessarily the opinions of the group and do not constitute sound legal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice.

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I think you'll be unlikely to get away with it. you're supposed to serve the summons on their registered office, which for both these banks is in Edinburgh. Your only other option is to get an English mailing address.

 

s42 of the Civil Jurisdiction and Judgements Act 1982 provides as follows:

 

s 42 Domicile and seat of corporation or association.

 

(1) For the purposes of this Act the seat of a corporation or association (as determined by this section) shall be treated as its domicile.

 

 

 

 

(2) The following provisions of this section determine where a corporation or association has its seat--

(a) for the purpose of Article 53 (which for the purposes of the
1968 Convention
or, as the case may be, the
Lugano Convention
equates the domicile of such a body with its seat); and

(b) for the purposes of this Act other than the provisions mentioned in section 43(1)(b) and © .

 

 

 

 

(3) A corporation or association has its seat in the United Kingdom, if and only if--

(a) it was incorporated or formed under the law of a part of the United Kingdom and has its registered office or some other official address in the United Kingdom; or

(b) its central management and control is exercised in the United Kingdom.

 

 

 

(4) A corporation or association has its seat in a particular part of the United Kingdom if and only if it has its seat in the United Kingdom and--

(a) it has its registered office or some other official address in that part; or

(b) its central management and control is exercised in that part; or

© it has a place of business in that part.

 

 

 

 

(5) A corporation or association has its seat in a particular place in the United Kingdom if and only if it has its seat in the part of the United Kingdom in which that place is situated and--

(a) it has its registered office or some other official address in that place; or

(b) its central management and control is exercised in that place; or

© it has a place of business in that place.

 

 

 

(6) Subject to subsection (7), a corporation or association has its seat in a state other than the United Kingdom if and only if--

(a) it was incorporated or formed under the law of that state and has its registered office or some other official address there; or

(b) its central management and control is exercised in that state.

 

 

 

 

(7) A corporation or association shall not be regarded as having its seat in a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom if it is shown that the courts of that state would not regard it as having its seat there.

(8) In this section--

"business" includes any activity carried on by a corporation or association, and "place of business" shall be construed accordingly;

'"official address", in relation to a corporation or association, means an address which it is required by law to register, notify or maintain for the purpose of receiving notices or other communications.

 

However, I have just realised that RBOS progate Jurisdiction to Scotland. I used to think that the term didn't comply with s3(6) of Schedule 8 of the CJJA - I have just realised that it complies with part ©. Damn! Back to the drawing board. Unless anyone else has any ideas.

 

 

 

s3(6), Schedule 8 Civil Judgements and Jurisdictions Act

 

 

 

 

(6) The provisions of this rule may be departed from only by an agreement -

(a) which is entered into after the dispute has arisen; or

 

 

 

 

(b) which allows the consumer to bring proceedings in courts other than those indicated in this rule; or

 

 

 

 

© which is entered into by the consumer and the other party to the contract, both of whom are at the time of conclusion of the contract
domiciled
or habitually resident in the same Regulation State, and which confers jurisdiction on the courts of that Regulation State, provided that such an agreement is not contrary to the law of that Regulation State.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm aware of all of this, however as you will (presumably) be in small claims, you will be subject to a much more informal procedure. The judge/sheriff will want to know why you're a Scottish based litigant trying to sue a Scottish based company in Engalnd. Based on personal experience, your answer will need to be a bit better than "the limits are higher in England" if you want to avoid it either being transferred to Scotland or thrown out altogether.

 

I should however point out that I have no direct experience of this situation. I just have a feeling, based on experience, of how judges - who tend to be nobody's fool - feel about litigants trying to play the system to their advantage. In small claims, I've noticed that they much prefer to look at cases purely on their merits. That being said, I'd be fascinated to see how you get on. ;)

Robertxc v. Abbey - £3300 Settled in full

Robertxc v. Clydesdale - £750 Settled in full

Nationwide v. Robertxc - £2000 overdraft wiped out, Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Style Card - Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Abbey (1) - Data Protection Act action. £750 compensation

Robertxc v. Abbey (2) - Data Protection Act action. £2000 compensation, default removed

 

The opinions on this post are those of Robertxc and not necessarily the opinions of the group and do not constitute sound legal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice.

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I'm aware of all of this, however as you will (presumably) be in small claims, you will be subject to a much more informal procedure. The judge/sheriff will want to know why you're a Scottish based litigant trying to sue a Scottish based company in Engalnd. Based on personal experience, your answer will need to be a bit better than "the limits are higher in England" if you want to avoid it either being transferred to Scotland or thrown out altogether.

 

I should however point out that I have no direct experience of this situation. I just have a feeling, based on experience, of how judges - who tend to be nobody's fool - feel about litigants trying to play the system to their advantage. In small claims, I've noticed that they much prefer to look at cases purely on their merits. That being said, I'd be fascinated to see how you get on. ;)

 

I suppose if they didn't respond that there would be no problem!

 

BTW if we were to get an English "forwarding" address. Would that be classed as fraudlent?

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Have just had standard reply from First Direct to LBA, now going to proceed through English Courts.

I presume that if I lodge case at Leeds I will have to be in attendance on the day?

Don\'t let the B**tards grind you down

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Is this part of another post? If not, you really should start a new one and not hijack someone elses.

 

In the highly unlikely event that your case actually gets to court, yes, you will have to be in attendance. If you claim is for less than £750 you should do it in Scotland.

Robertxc v. Abbey - £3300 Settled in full

Robertxc v. Clydesdale - £750 Settled in full

Nationwide v. Robertxc - £2000 overdraft wiped out, Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Style Card - Default removed by order of the sheriff

Robertxc v. Abbey (1) - Data Protection Act action. £750 compensation

Robertxc v. Abbey (2) - Data Protection Act action. £2000 compensation, default removed

 

The opinions on this post are those of Robertxc and not necessarily the opinions of the group and do not constitute sound legal advice. You are advised to seek professional legal advice.

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Understood this was a general thread regarding making claims in England and not any case in particular.

Don\'t let the B**tards grind you down

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry, not been in to update for a while, a couple of things worth mentioning though.

1. The person claiming received an offer of settlement for approx half of amount being claimed from HSBC.

2. Without any further prompting this was raised to around 2/3 of amount claimed ( without interest of course, as this hasn't been added yet ).

 

What's the consensus on these offers , should a letter be sent accepting the amount in part payment with a promise to pursue the rest ?

 

Anyway - times up so it's time to claim from English court, Now I had suggested a claim via Leeds court which is nearest to where all these letters have been sent as part of their complaints procedure. However , Robertxc - you mention it must be to their Head Office - i.e. London. Why does it need to be Head office ?

 

Next, I believe I can print off the forms from Moneyclaim and post them as you have advised me previously so I may be back if I get in a muddle.

 

Regards

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This question arises time and time again. Please note that if the bank has an address in England then you simply raise a claim on Form N1 and send to the local County Court of the Bank's registered office. I did this with A&L, I live in Scotland but raised an action in Leicester. It is not difficult or complicated in any way.

 

Only problem arises if the bank is also a Scottish Bank.

 

Hope this helps any future occurences of this question. It took me months of going round in circles to find out it was this simple, so don't want others doing the same thing.

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