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Andy711351

NIP - 76 in a 50 motorway zone - short term disqualification

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Man in the Middle, thankyou for the reply

 

 

I have now received the SJP notice.

 

I do intend to plead guity and go to court.

 

I have spoken to my line manager, who is a clinical medical professor and the medical director where I work

 

They are both wholly supportive of my case, in the sense that I had stayed behind on the day of the speeding offence, above and beyond my duty of care, in norder to prepare for a meeting the next morning. Normally I would have finished at 5 pm, but just before I left I was asked to fill in for a colleague for the following morning. That meant me staying back to prepare for a meeting . i didn't leave till 9 pm and had to drive 60 miles to home, having been up since 7 am.

 

The team is supportive of me. i will enter my mitigation and both are happy to supply letters of support. Im not sure if these will help in mitigation or not, but do you think the magistrates may take a different view to this? Could they say, this bloke thinks because he is a doctor and has got all this backing thinks he can get away with it? Thats not my intention, rather I want a reduced sentence.

 

I prefer a ban because I do not have a permanent post. i work in this hospital as a locum doctor and go there only once a week and whenever they need me. Rest of the time, Im self employed, but not in the private sector. I do not do private work in private hospitals. The self employment income is also variable.

 

I prefer the ban because i could do even with a 30 day ban. i will use the train etc.. 6 points on the license sounds just more worrying for me because I do drive a fair bit to various hospitals as and when needed, so , not because I am reckless, but sometimes the drive is long , as far as 100 mils each way, and with long hours , despite me having rest at the service stations, occasionally , as in this time, I may not take notice of the speed limits especially at night, and may accidentally go over the limit.  I have been really paranoid since this conviction to the extent that I dont drive more than 60mph on the motorways anymore and I will be very apologetic in my mitigation.

 

 

I will represent myself, though had a quote of £800 from a law firm, who said they will plead guilty but try and work on the mitigation. By paying them, am i gonna save much? are they really going to reduce the fine so much that the £800 they receive will offset any fines I may have to pay?

 

 

BTW, what is the maximum fine ?

 

also, some of my income is pre tax as I am a sole trader so receive the money into my bank account pre tax. I havent had my account done yet because its my first year as a self employed doctor, but what figure do i put on the magistrates form for the income. 

 

Any advice is most appreciated as Im am doing the form and have to post it in the next two weeks.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

On 14/06/2019 at 13:55, Man in the middle said:

 

 

I'm not too clear why you would prefer a ban but if one is considered it will not be 56 days. Seven to fourteen is more likely. If you want to argue for that you must go to court but there is no guarantee that the court will accede to your request as the choice is not yours.

 

I have limited internet access until Monday and if you have any questions I may not see them until then.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Quite honestly when speeding matters are dealt with in court the sentences are fairly prescriptive. Very rarely does mitigation materially influence the court's decision. Any solicitor who charges you £800 and says that they can save you money is taking you for a ride.

 

Having said that, many drivers offer what they believe is mitigation when it in fact aggravates the offence. I would not attempt to get the court to treat you more leniently by telling them you drove home following a long day at work and after having been up for 14 hours.Their view will be that if you believed you were over tired you should not have driven at all. Best to keep it to "out of character (as borne out by my clean licence)...momentary lapse of concentration" etc. Whilst letters of support from your employer will not do you any harm (provided they don't mention "long day at work, may have been tired, etc.) they are unlikely to have much affect.

 

The guideline fine for the offence (with a guilty plea) is  one week's net income. You will also pay a "Victim Surcharge" of 10% of the fine (Min £30, Max £170) and £85 prosecution costs. You need to calculate your net income as best you can. So long as it looks reasonable it is unlikely to be queried. The maximum fine for speeding on a motorway is £2,500. That is the maximum without a guilty plea meaning that if your net weekly income exceeds that then that is the most you can be fined before your one third discount (for your guilty plea) is applied. So the most you can be fined if your weekly income is £2,500 or more is £1,667.

 

As far as a ban or points goes, as I said earlier the normal disposal for such a speed is six points. You can suggest that the court imposes a short ban instead but do not mention that this is your preference so that you have some leeway in case of future offences are committed! But it is entirely a matter for the court.

Edited by Man in the middle
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Man In the Middle

 

many Thanks again for being so kind and helpful

 

:)

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Hi All

I handed in my plea guilty to the court in person on the 5th of July 2019

 

The clerk receiving my papers said that the hearing date is 1st of August.

 

I explained that I had  ticked the box asking to be there in person

 

He said in that case, its likely that on the 1st of August, the hearing will be adjourned

 

I asked what kind of time frame. he replied its usually with two-three weeks so looking at the full hearing end of August

 

I called today to find out the date. 

 

Its been adjourned to 20/11/2019

 

Im very frustrated and angry

 

Had I known that the delay would be so long, I would have agreed to the hearing proceeding yesterday without my presence with a sentence being passed on. Because the clerk said it will only be a matter of 2-3 weeks after that I stick to my decision to attend the hearing

 

Really frustrated because offence date was 31/1/2019 and have to wait now till 20/11/2019.

 

Whatever sentence, likely 6 months ban, then I really would have much rather preferred it to begin in august rather than start in November

 

These unnecessary delays are just stressing me out 

 

Just to point another thing out

 

I drive alot on the motorway almost daily

 

I have noticed that many a times they have reduced the limit to 40 mph during the daytime, yet there is normal flow of traffic. I can presume it was from the previous night where there was some work being done. The fact that the signs are still there makes me abide by the 40mph and stay in the slow lane, but the number of lorries beeping me almost amounts to harrassment.

 

I feel its ok for the enforcement officers to fine us/take us to court, but yet, when the roadworks are done with at night, these temporary signs should be removed promptly because Im the only one going at 40mph at daytime ( because they are still in place), and theres no raodworks happening during the daytime.That does make it very confusing and dangerous for a driver like me who is now strictly watching every sign and abiding by it

 

 

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“The slow lane” is telling as to your attitude to driving.

You mean the “lane for normal driving”?

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Just now, BazzaS said:

“The slow lane” is telling as to your attitude to driving.

You mean the “lane for normal driving”?

Yes sorry thats what I meant

I am very v careful and watch every road sign and even auto cruise to the speed limit

 

 

 

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What, you mean watching for speed limit signs, and indicators of presumed 30 limit (such as built-up area with street lights), like every driver should be doing if they want to avoid risk of a speeding ticket?

Perish the thought! 

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Posted (edited)

I must say that does seem an unusually long adjournment to a normal traffic court. One thing I would make certain of is that your Guilty plea has been recorded correctly. Not many people ask for a court appearance when they are pleading guilty. Your plea may have been recorded incorrectly and the matter listed for trial. When you do that you could explore the possibility of your case being re-listed for the Single Justice Procedure. I doubt they will accede to your request but if you don’t ask you don’t get.

 

That said, if your Guilty plea has been accepted and they will not agree to a reversion to the SJ process, you are where you are and there’s no point in getting stressed about it. As I said earlier, your attendance at court is unlikely to make any material difference to the outcome and I believe that will be six points. There are no aggravating features which would make a ban more likely but if it is considered it will be for no more than, perhaps 14 days. One thing you may like to learn is that if you are awarded points, they last (for “totting up” purposes) for three years from the date of the offence. So whenever your case is finally concluded they become inactive on 31st January 2022. However, this is what worries me (and is certainly what would worry the Magistrates if you mentioned it which is why I strongly advised against it):

 

Quote

“I prefer the ban because i could do even with a 30 day ban. i will use the train etc.. 6 points on the license sounds just more worrying for me because I do drive a fair bit to various hospitals as and when needed, so , not because I am reckless, but sometimes the drive is long , as far as 100 mils each way, and with long hours , despite me having rest at the service stations, occasionally , as in this time, I may not take notice of the speed limits especially at night, and may accidentally go over the limit”

 

The very idea of the points system is to give drivers a chance to modify their driving before they are taken off the road, Whatever your lifestyle or work arrangements you have an obligation to stick to the speed limits and what you think is “mitigation” should you transgress is actually aggravation. If you are driving following long hours and your concentration is wavering you should really consider whether you should be driving at all in those circumstances. To repeat my earlier advice, do not under any circumstances mention this in court as mitigation.

 

I understand your frustration with temporary speed limits but, again, you are getting unnecessarily stressed about something over which you have no control. You don’t know what lies ahead when a lower speed limit is introduced and even if it is nothing it makes no difference. Other drivers harassing you to go faster is not uncommon and something you must learn to live with. If you are awarded six points, another offence in this category of seriousness will see you facing a ban of six months. You need to consider that when you have other driver’s harassing you. I believe you can get stickers which say “On 9 points, please pass”. One of those might encourage other drivers to cut you a bit of slack.

Edited by Man in the middle
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Hi All

 

Thanks so far for all your replies

 

I had my day in court

 

I representeed myself

 

Few things first:

 

1. I was totally surprised that it seemed they hadn't even read through my paperwork.

I originally had sent my reply to the SJPN on the 3rd of July pleading Guilty and wanting to have a hearing.

Therefore my case was allocated for today.

 

The court seemd a bit clueless as they asked me for a copy of my statement of means to which I provided my personal copy that I had taken to them by hand 4 months ago along with a extra page explaining my mitigating circumstances.

 

I sincerely doubt if they had read through any of it.

 

2. I entered the CR

 

The gentleman on the PC in front of the three judges asked for for my name dob etc ( not sure who he is, the secretary of the CR or other role, sorry for my ignorance)at he is.

 

The prosecution read their brief statement.

The gentleman said he acknowledged i had pleaded guity and I was self representing and said ok its your chance to have your say.

 

He said do you plead Guilty and I said yes.

before I even carried on he said something along the lines of this is standard for a fine and 6 points or disqualification , the former which is usually handed out, unless you prefer the other one.

I said if I have a choice then a short term DQ

 

3.

 

The judge then said something and then I was asked to stand up and plea.

 

I stood up, apologised for committing the offence, said Im sorry , remorseful, and disappointed for myself.

 

Explained my clean DL and that this was out of character and lapse of concentration.

 

Was then asked to be seated.

 

Judges had their discussion with each other.

 

the main  judge said the usual  is 6 pp and fine but we wondering why you prefer a ban as opposed to 6PP.

I really had no convincing reason but explained that i respect whatever decision they come up with

 

He explained that most people would rather go for 6PP than a ban and we are wondering whether there are other issues that make you prefer a ban as this is unusual and it seemed they had the perception that a ban would have graver consequences on my insurance etc.

 

I clearly said that there was no underlying issues or reasons for me wanting a ban . (I DID NOT say anything about fear of future totting or anything like that just to be clear to anyone here that make think I had said anything unwise) .

 

Main Judge then had a further discussion and then sentenced me, based on the COPY of the statement of means that was my copy which they didn't seem to have, and hence used my photocopied one off the one I sent them

 

I was fined apprx 800 + 10% surcharge and something to do with donation totalling maybe approx. £1000 + 6PP. he said that I got a discount of £400 which had reduced the fine to  £800 ( na third as it has been mentioned here before)

 

I said thankyou your Honour then left

……………………..

 

I left but inside me left a bit perplexed and maybe this is now just academic and out of my curiosity because I will just take it on the chin and pay the fine, but

 

a. on my statement of means my monthly income was 6200 ( this is variable but I had to estimate it).

 

My total expenses was 3760 per month of which

725 is rent,

1500 is child and ex spouse maintenance

plus other travel and regular bills,

all totalling to 3760.  

 

If I were to do the maths myself, then 6200-3760= 2440 pcm net .

divide this by 4~ 610pw.

Knock a third off for guilty appeal and remorse

~ 403

 

I don't understand on what bases have they come up with the original ~1200 ( discounted to 800) pw if they purely trust my figures of net income and net expenditure which i had entered on the forms?

 

I am not going to contend that but

I genuinely believe that they go through so many cases and they did not seem focussed and the fact that I had to provide them with a COPY of my means income ( which they should have had in their documents ).

Otherwise, based on the form, then its a clear simple calculation of net income minus net expenditure, and then the fine should be on the difference, unless Im wrong

 

The cheapest solicitors had quoted me £900 for a guilty plea saying they will try and get me a short term DQ...etc.

Im glad I self represented because Im not sure whether the solicitors would have been able to reduce the fine, meaning I would have now had to pay out £1000 ( court) + £900 (solicitors). maybe, just maybe they could have benefited me by getting a short DQ, although Im not sure what argument sols would have used.

 

Last thought:

 

given that my presence in the court does not appear to have made any difference in either getting a short term DQ, or a reduction in fine ( apart from the third discount , as they don't seem to have properly addressed my net income and expenditure)

 

I wonder how much worse off I would have been had I taken the chance to enter no guilty plea without any solicitor representation.

I may have not got the 1/3 rd discount from 1200 to the 800, which means 1200 +10% surcharge plus donation + 6PP.

 

Surely a no guilty plea would have therefore cost me an extra 400.

Would I have lost out in any other way, apart from the monetary loss, because I just feel hat going to court etc.. 

had not made any difference and was just a waste of time

 

This is a post mortem analysis but replies from experts in the field may be useful for other drivers who may end up in my position and through a single lapse of concentration on a background of good driving history, get a speeding ticket which warrants a single justice procedure.

 

Given the indifference to the mitigating factors and the 1/3 difference in the possible fine, is it worth taking the risk and defending as non guilty, or are there other consequences from a no guilty plea that I have not been aware of

 

Still a bit angry why I didn't speak up

 

income 6200 pcm

expenses 3760 ( maintenance, accommodation, bills- didn't even mention school fees)

 

they seem to have just taken off 1000

 

therefore 6200-1000= 5200 pcm

 

5200/30= 173.33 per day

 

= 1213 per week ( 173.3 x7)

 

1/3 discount = 808

 

I certainly do not have a net balance of 5200 to spend at the end of the month.

they have overseen my honest legitimate expenses and I feel so harshly done by to be honest

 

In fact, I have been out of permanent work since june 2018, and my quoted figure of 6200 has been from self employment and temporary paid work, and if anything I have overestimated because I did  not want to come across as under reporting

 

feel that the fine has ben harsh,

I can understand the 6PP which I accept but the fine is truly harsh :( as I don't have that amount of net money at the end of the month

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the feedback. A couple of comments:

 

1. Before Magistrates arrive at court they have no idea what sort of offences they will be dealing with or who they will be dealing with.  They are given a list of defendants and the charges against them on arrival and that's it. Their Legal Advisor (the person sitting in front of them and facing the court) runs through that list before the court begins, but only to point out anything unusual or anything in particular they need to know. In a traffic court there is not usually anything to tell them. They have no papers given to them about any of their cases (except occasionally when dealing with trials or probation reports) until the case is called on. They rely on being provided with any papers they need by either the prosecutor or their Legal Advisor..

 

2. Your fine is based on your weekly net income and no account of expenditure is normally taken. It is asked for so that, should the defendant ask to pay in instalments, some idea of how much per week or month he can realistically afford can be gained. Actually, your fine was not harsh. On the contrary you were treated rather leniently. The guideline fine for 76 in a 50 is one and a half week's net income. £6,200 pcm is £1,430 pw. So your fine should have been £2,145. Your guilty plea would knock it back to £1,430 - one week's net income, as I mentioned in an earlier post. In addition to that you would pay £143 in the form of a "Victim Surcharge" and £85 towards prosecution costs - so £1,658 in total. Had you pleaded Not Guilty and been found guilty at trial (a near certainty from what I remember you told us) not only would you have lost the discount on your fine but you would also have paid £620 prosecution costs. A conviction following a trial should have cost you £2,145 (Fine) + £170 (VS) + £620 (Costs) which equals £2,935 (the maximum Victim Surcharge for offences committed before 28/6/19 is £170).

 

Other than that I'm not surprised they asked why you would prefer a ban instead of points and even less surprised that they chose points over a ban. I doubt your presence made any difference at all (which, again, I suggested earlier that it probably would not). Sentencing for speeding is very prescriptive and there is rarely any mitigation or other factors surrounding the offence or the offender which would significantly influence the outcome. Speeding becomes a very expensive business when cases come to court, especially for those on high incomes and very often a "view" is taken by the Magistrates that the calculated fine is a "bit steep". That's probably why you were cut some slack.

 

One other point which will probably upset you more than help (but which I think it is important you are aware of). Had your recorded speed been just one mph lower you would almost certainly have been offered a fixed penalty (FP) of £100 and three points. FPs are normally offered up to 49mph in a 30 limit, 65 in a 40, 75 in a 50, 85 in a 60 and 95 in a 70.

 

Thanks again for the feedback.

Edited by Man in the middle

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Dear Man in The Middle

 

Actually I should be thanking you

 

I have been impressed by your kindness your professionalism and your prompt reply

 

I very much thankyou for your thorough reading through my case and pin pointing every point

 

I was thinking of appealing the fine aspect of the sentence but you have made everything much clearer and it makes me feel better

 

 

Cant thank you enough for being so helpful and may you be blessed :)

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54 minutes ago, Andy711351 said:

I was thinking of appealing the fine aspect of the sentence...

 

I wouldn't do that if I were you !!!!😁😁😁

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1 hour ago, Man in the middle said:

 

I wouldn't do that if I were you !!!!😁😁😁

Thanks again

 

In that case i will consider the matter closed and done and dusted  and just be careful in the future

 

many thanks for your input

 

:)

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