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Incontro

ParkingEye ANPR PCN Claimform - Town Quay 2, Southampton

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hope it doesn't say FINE!!

 

please complete this

 

 


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Name of the Claimant ?  ParkingEye LTD

claimants Solicitors: (Doesn't appear to say, although I named claimant's legal representative in my previous post).

 

Date of issue 05 AUG 2019

 

What is the claim for – 

 

1.Claim for monies outstanding from the defendant, in relation to a parking charge, issued XXX, for parking on private land in breach of the T&Cs (the contract). ParkingEye's ANPR system, monitoring Town Quay 2, Southampton , SO14 2AQ, captured vehicle XXX entering and leaving the car park, parking without a valid paid parking ticket.

 

2.The signage, clearly displayed at the entrance and throughout the car park, states that this is private land, is managed by ParkingEye LTD, and is a paid parking site, along with other T+C's set out in the signage, the Parking Charge became payable.

 

3.The defendant was previously presented with the opportunity to take their appeal to POPLA, the independant appeals service for parking on private land, but this has not been taken. This claim is in reference to parking charge XXX.

 

What is the value of the claim? 175 GBP (inc. 50 GBP legal representative's costs)

 

Has the claim been issued by the Private parking Company or was the PCN assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim ? No, ParkingEye LTD have issued the claim.

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment?   n/a

 

I clearly was being stupid and didn't know the legal definition (or arguably even plain english definition) of the word 'FINE'. No it does not state it. I (like many other clueless people) have always used the words fine, claim, charge, etc. interchangeably in the past.

 

Can I fill in the acknowledgement of service form to buy the 2 weeks extra time as per usual?

 

I believe you can now register for something online, and do this online nowadays right?

 

 

 

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pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.
.
 register as an individual
 note the long gateway number given
 then log in
.
 select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.
.
 then using the details required from the claimform
.
 defend all
 leave jurisdiction unticked.
 click thru to the end
 confirm and exit MCOL.

 get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors [if one is not listed send to the claimant]

no need to sign anything
.
you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.
you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform [1 in the count]


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PE use in house legal so wont have solicitors named but that menas that they are charging you £50 they havent  and wont pay out.

 

Dont put in a defence yet, by acknowledging at this tiem you buy yourself another fortnight to do that and that give PE time to respond or not to your CPR31.14 request and if they dotn you can say that you dotn believe they have the necessary permissions because they havent produced them.

 

Now you know it is a dock so covered by its own byelaws so therefore unlikely PE can offer you anything and certainly cnat create a keeper liability.

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MCOL done.

 

What particulars should I list in the CPR 31.14 doc? 

 

T+C's (the contract) visible on signage at the entrance to the car park (YES - this is directly mentioned in their particulars)

ANPR/camera footage? (?)

 

I guess asking for contract between landowner and parkingeye is out of scope for the CPR? 

 

Shall I separately submit a GDPR/SAR type request?

 

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no need to sar etc anyone

 

click the link in post 33 and just send it

 


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Posted (edited)

Hi dx100uk and others,

 

I intend to send a settlement letter (carefully worded, to admit zero liability), offering a paltry sum to settle the case in full.

 

Lots of family obligations these days, hence the idea. Shall I continue to send the CPR letter at the same time (i.e. today) as the setttlement letter? Perhaps I should mention in the settlement letter that it doesn't affect any timelines or proceedings in the case, until it is formally accepted?

Edited by Incontro

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Send cpr as it is

No need to settle


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So PE break the law by obtaining and processing your keeper details when they are prhohibited from doing so and you want to settle?

 

By doings so you admit liablity whether you think you do or not and then they may actually have a decent chance of winning when they are well under 50/50 at the moment even with a bad judge.

 

It will take a up to a year to creak through the system so whatever is happening at home will surely have solved itself by then

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Posted (edited)

Guys, appreciate all your help so far.

 

Ericsbrother - thanks a lot for your post and support. What's done is done though, I have sent two docs today: the first is the settlement letter, the second is the CPR letter, both by first class post, with certificate of posting.

 

The amount I have offered them is a very low sum - they can accept it or not, it does not concern me. If they don't accept, I am fully prepared to defend till the end (and win).

 

Obviously having little experience with the court system, I don't know how far ahead hearings are usually scheduled - if I had known sooner that the hearing would be months ahead (as eb stated), I would have reconsidered sending the settlement offer. But I sent it only since this month and the next I have lots of personal/family stuff going on at the moment, and likely cannot attend a hearing. Come autumn/winter time I have all the time in the world.

 

Eb - I would have thought the odds would strongly be against PE, considering POFA doesn't apply - their case is dead in the water if you ask me. They'd be doing well to accept the offer.

 

 

Edited by Incontro

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If the offer was "without prejudice save as to costs" they can't raise it in court anyway, it can only be submitted by either side at the point that costs are being decided.

 

Sadly it does give them false hope though. They are much less likely to drop the case now.

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hi guys.

 

update: after a few days, PE responded. they put in a counter offer (without prejudice save as to costs) of 150 GBP (basically what they originally claimed minus the court fee).

 

obviously I am totally unwilling to accept this offer. i will start preparing my defense statement/particulars (the bullet points), and post up here for your review/criticism. when (by what date) shall i submit this to you guys? obviously the later the better, since i dont want to give PE too much of a headstart on rebuttal?

 

P.S: they did not acknowledge/reference the CPR request I made at all, instead they used the wording "please find enclosed copies of correspondance as requested", and only sent me copies of previous docs/claims they sent to me already, and not the particulars i requested in the CPR letter.

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your defence is not due till/by 6th sept 4pm

it will be the std 2 or 3 line defence in most PCN claimform threads here

NOTHING more

 

dx

 


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as they cant ask for more than the amount demanded in the NTK ( they use ANPR so can nevrs go after driver) you would be mad to even consider this.

Now you submitted an acknowledgement of service when you got the N1. If not you ahve 1 day to create an accout with moneyclaim online and get that done. Deny all and that is about that.

Then you have another fortnight to submit an outline defence which will be PE has no locus standi , no cause for ation as land not "relevant land" and covered by its own byelaws. IN ANY CASE ss POFA not applicable there can never be any keeper liability.

 

That is about it for the moment.

get that filed online by the end of the month and send a paper copy to PE on 2nd sept

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Posted (edited)

ok thanks both, will post up my proposed wording/points for your review around the end of the month (couple or so days before the deadline). i will also read up on prior similar cases.

 

happy days

 

EDIT: should i word the bullet points as accurately and as detailed as possible? or should i leave it somewhat vague?

 

 

Edited by Incontro

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I refer you to post 63...………...


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Posted (edited)

Hi dk100uk, would be grateful if you could post up any examples I could get inspiration from. I've started to create a draft document.

 

Meanwhile I've come across Pepipoo forum posts advising defendants to respond to the claim with their outline of defense to be as detailed as possible, i.e. listing as many possible angles of defense as possible. The reasoning is that you can only refer to and expand upon bullet points raised in the defense, and not come up with totally new arguments during the hearing.

 

Is this true?

 

EDIT: thread I'm referring to is here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=105849&st=40

Edited by Incontro

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2 or 3 line defence is in just about every PCN claimform thread here already.

 

as for filing a third part harmony defence. finely detailing what is wrong.

 

that's for you witness statement.,

 

you need to re read the responses throughout this thread from post 1 again

that should confirm what you need to use.

 

the POC says:

 

1.Claim for monies outstanding from the defendant, in relation to a parking charge, issued XXX, for parking on private land in breach of the T&Cs (the contract). ParkingEye's ANPR system, monitoring Town Quay 2, Southampton , SO14 2AQ, captured vehicle XXX entering and leaving the car park, parking without a valid paid parking ticket.

 

2.The signage, clearly displayed at the entrance and throughout the car park, states that this is private land, is managed by ParkingEye LTD, and is a paid parking site, along with other T+C's set out in the signage, the Parking Charge became payable.

 

3.The defendant was previously presented with the opportunity to take their appeal to POPLA, the independant appeals service for parking on private land, but this has not been taken. This claim is in reference to parking charge XXX.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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worthy notes from your thread..

 

.POFA doesn't apply

the docks byeleaws and their signage is a miserable failure to create a contract with you either ( either an invitation to treat or prohibitive signage according to which one you read)
.
the land is not relevant land as far as the POFA goes so there is no keeper liability in this matter so there is no cause for action against me. As docks and harbours governed by it own byelaws these are supreme to any contract you claim to have so there is no contract for the driver to consider that is enforceable.
.
1.There is no cause for action  as there is no contract between us.  The land is covered by its own byelaws that are supreme to anything you wish to claim is an offer so there can be no performance to the contract by yourselves. 
.
2. As the land is not relevant land for the purposes of the POFA there can be no keeper liability and that means you had no reasonable cause to obtain my keeper details so any civil claim will be met by a counterclaim for at least £250 for your breach of the GDPR. 
.
you know it is a dock so covered by its own byelaws so therefore unlikely PE can offer you anything and certainly can't create a keeper liability.
.
PE has no locus standi , no cause for ation as land not "relevant land" and covered by its own byelaws. IN ANY CASE ss POFA not applicable there can never be any keeper liability. 

 

 

 

 


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Not sure I understand the process...

 

The defence form that the MCOL asks for accepts 120 or so odd lines, and everywhere other forum I have seen (I have been reading up a lot on pepipoo for similar POFA/byelaw cases), people have gone to the effort of writing extremely detailed, strong defense statements, not just two or three lines.

 

My point about only being able to refer to bullet points/topics listed in the outline of defense still stands... So why are you recommending just two or three lines?


What is a "third part harmony defence"?

 

Re: witness statement - not sure what stage of the MCOL form this is at?

And when this has to be submitted? 

But assuming the form gives me the chance to supply one,

am I correct in assuming that it's in my best interest to write a witness statement with a statement from myself as the defendant?

 

As it gives me a chance to better/properly form an argument/defense in advance of the hearing...?

 

Sorry for all the questions, but I just need to know what format to prepare, before I can run past a first draft by you...

 

Cheers.

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you p'haps need to focus on reading posts by ericsbrother here on CAG rather than other sites

or p'haps the parking prankster website at best..

 

if you click ericsbrother on the left above his avatar in his last post above

click activity and it shows all his posts down on the left

the more you read the better.

 

as for the defence

third part harmony means singing the same line of a song again & again & again in a different tone

so repeating again and again the same point in a defence or differing points to backup that part of your defence.

 

IHMO why do you want to tip the opposition off to what is wrong with their signs/contract/wholeclaim?? , to me, at the defence stage, that's guaranteed suicide to you winning the claim. It will allow the claimant ample time to counter the faults you specifically point out in their witness statement { later in the claim process, which you appear not to understand yet going by your comment about WS in your above post].

 

their poc is extremely sparse [what they are claiming against you] and that's is done on purpose to make you show your cards...DON'T

likewise you reply with an extremely brief defence not showing your hand.

 

POC

 

1.Claim for monies outstanding from the defendant, in relation to a parking charge, issued XXX, for parking on private land in breach of the T&Cs (the contract). ParkingEye's ANPR system, monitoring Town Quay 2, Southampton , SO14 2AQ, captured vehicle XXX entering and leaving the car park, parking without a valid paid parking ticket.

 

2.The signage, clearly displayed at the entrance and throughout the car park, states that this is private land, is managed by ParkingEye LTD, and is a paid parking site, along with other T+C's set out in the signage, the Parking Charge became payable.

 

3.The defendant was previously presented with the opportunity to take their appeal to POPLA, the independant appeals service for parking on private land, but this has not been taken. This claim is in reference to parking charge XXX.

 

defence

 

1. The Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle registration number XXXXXXX on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.   

 

2. It is denied that any 'parking charges’ are owed and any debt is denied in its entirety because there can be no keeper liability so no cause for action against the defendant.

 

3.The claimant has failed to reply to my CPR 31:14 request sent on xxxx date, thus has failed to show locus standi .

the defendant does not believe they have the necessary contract with the land owner to bring any action against anyone under their own right.

 

3. Accordingly, it is denied that the driver breached any of the Claimant's purported contractual terms, whether express, implied, or by conduct as no enforceable contract offered at the time by claimant so no cause for action can have arisen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Incontro - if you look at it from a different angle, what critical argument(s) would the defence suggested by DX prevent you from putting forward later?

 

I would echo DX's suggestion about reading other advice forums. The advice given here is as good as it gets - you just can't see it...yet.

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The short defence is the key that opens the door to specifics around those points at WS stage, less is more, as the PPC doesn't know what else is coming so cannot challenge it in their WS, do a War and peace defence and they will unpick it with lies and deceit, and probably even ask for papers only.

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On 27/08/2019 at 01:34, dx100uk said:

defence

 

1. The Defendant was the registered keeper of the vehicle registration number XXXXXXX on the material date. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.   

 

2. It is denied that any ' parking charges’ are owed and any debt is denied in its entirety because there can be no keeper liability so no cause for action against the defendant. The claimant has failed to show locus standi so the defendant does not believe they have a right to bring an action against anyone.   

3. Accordingly, it is denied that the driver breached any of the Claimant's purported contractual terms, whether express, implied, or by conduct as no enforceable contract offered at the time by claimant so no cause for action can have arisen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

thanks a lot for the detailed explanation and suggested points for the statement of defense, i appreciate it... i shall be as vague as possible, i will simply submit more or less what you suggested in that case.

 

this is beginning to make more sense now... so is this the correct order the following? (perhaps oversimplifying it a bit)

 

1. claimant issues claim, defendant receives claim, submits AOS

2. should the claimant decide to defend the case in full, defendant submits statement of defense

3. court sends directions questionnaire to both parties, claim is then assigned to a track (small claims court)

4. drafting of witness statements on both sides (if applicable??)

5. hearing date set

 

also, in your text above, i assume you meant 'defendant' instead of driver (see bold part)?

 

 

thanks a lot to everyone that replied

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Almost.....

 

1. claimant issues claim, defendant receives claim, submits AOS

2. should the claimant decide to defend the case in full, defendant submits statement of defense

3. claimant is served a copy of the defence and decides if they wish to proceed and in informs the court if they wish to proceed

4. court sends directions questionnaire to both parties, claim is then assigned to a track ( small claims court) and Notice of Allocation issued which informs both parties when the hearing fee should be paid when the trial date is set and directions that both parties must comply and submit by date

5. drafting of witness statements on both sides which particularises the initial claimed particulars/defence with reasons....along with documents as evidence in support

 

Andy

 


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