SP30 - 63mph in a 30mph

[imcallumwbu]

Hi,

 

I recently got a letter from the magistrates asking to plead guilty/not-guilty to a speeding fine where I was doing 63 in a 30 (allegedly).

 

I asked for evidence and calibration certificates, which they sent (cant attach???)

 

Anyways, they are really poor quality and you cant see the road markings etc however the camera clocked me at 63, could i plead innocent and say the camera was faulty and since they cant prove the speed by way of road markings my punishment should be lenient or dismissed?

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. People should be along to advise over the course of the day.

 

You should be able to attach images if you read our upload guide [click on the word].

 

Best, HB

[sgtbush]

What type of camera got you?

Gatso? Average speed check? Forward facing infa red?

[imcallumwbu]

It was a gatso, rear facing so they got me traveling away from the camera

[sgtbush]

And where was it.

Use google maps as all speed cameras are documented.

[imcallumwbu]

It was Ryhope Road, Sunderland

[sgtbush]

You need to upload the pictures you've been sent, with your reg blacked out

[BazzaS]

First things first, did they send you (or the registered keeper) a S172 notice to identify the driver, and have you been nominated as the driver?.

 

Do you have any reason to believe you weren't doing in excess of 30mph?

Do you have any reason to believe you weren't doing 63 mph?

 

You are of course entitled to put the prosecution to strict proof that you committed the offence as alleged, but you'd have to plead 'not guilty' and go to court to do so.

If you then went to court, and the Magistrates' took that as you didn't want the credit for an early guilty plea, and you were looking for a technicality / loophole, if found guilty you may find it harder to persuade them you were contrite, and deserving of a lower sentence.

 

Do you have any points currently? What are you aiming for as a realistic outcome?.

 

 

The sentencing guideline is (for 51 and above in a 30): a Band C fine, and 6 points OR disqualification for 7-56 days. However, "Where an offender is driving grossly in excess of the speed limit the court should consider a disqualification in excess of 56 days", and I'd expect the prosecutor to argue that over double the speed limit is "grossly in excess of the speed limit".

 

What I'm unsure of is if you ask for all the calibration logs and technical evidence, if this might "paint a target on your back", and if they might then decide to try for an alternative charge of careless driving (it being "below the standard of a careful and competent driver"), or if they aren't now able to add that.

If they could and there was a "greater risk of harm" based on "High level of traffic or pedestrians in vicinity', that'd make the baseline (still a Band C fine / potential for disqualification") but the points that might be an alternative to disqualification would be 7-9 points, instead of 3-6.

Did you receive either:

a) a summons or

b) a Notice Of Intended Prosecution, and within what timeframe of being nominated as the driver?. Was the possibility of a charge of careless driving raised?.

 

 

Is this the site?

The bit where the carriageway is divided? (though it isn't a true 'dual carriageway')

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.8903335,-1.3735928,3a,75y,120.49h,70.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEWeg598QCTqnCZcc6YVprA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

If so, they have even put up speed camera warnings and a reminder it is 30 mph.....

[renegadeimp]

To upload the images, convert them to PDF, and click upload and follow the instructions

[sgtbush]

Is this the site?

The bit where the carriageway is divided? (though it isn't a true 'dual carriageway')

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.8903...7i13312!8i6656

 

If so, they have even put up speed camera warnings and a reminder it is 30 mph.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

there is a sign in that google street view pic with a 30mph sign AND a sign for enforcement cameras and a bit gurther on the markings in the road seem clear.

[imcallumwbu]

I cant upload photos as I dont have the permissions (Yes, im trying PDF)

 

and to answer the questions:

 

First things first, did they send you (or the registered keeper) a S172 notice to identify the driver, and have you been nominated as the driver?. Yes, i sent that back admitting I was driving

 

Do you have any reason to believe you weren't doing in excess of 30mph? I do think I was only doing mid 50's but im not sure, it was 5 months ago now and I just barely remember it

Do you have any reason to believe you weren't doing 63 mph? As above... im unsure

 

Do you have any points currently? What are you aiming for as a realistic outcome?. No, I have a clean license for the 5 year ive drove

 

Did you receive either:

a) a summons or

b) a Notice Of Intended Prosecution, and within what timeframe of being nominated as the driver?. Was the possibility of a charge of careless driving raised?. I have recieved a notice asking if i want to plead guilty/not guilty after about 3-4 months of admitting i was the driver

 

And yes that is the site, with the one sign saying 30mph and a speed camera symbol, but it was pitch black when i was caught, and i honestly thought the road was atleast 50 (admittedly i was a bit distracted by my female friend and not 100% focused so i missed the signs)

[renegadeimp]

i would say to own up to it and accept the points and fine. If you try using that excuse in court or a defence, its gonna fall flat, and youll fall harder.

[imcallumwbu]

close up of first shot.pdf

first shot, unreadable reg and vague road marking legibility.pdf

second shot, distant and unreadable road markings.pdf

the road as seen in daylight on streetview, with the camera 300yds down the road.pdf

[renegadeimp]

They dont have to be readable. Just the first one to identify the vehicle. For instance you could have been going so fast that the camera would only be able to take a pic once with your vehicle in, and the second flash would capture empty road. This would simply mean you were going too fast for the camera to capture the second one ( and yes, they would know what speeds the camera can detect).

 

As i already said, you have already admitted here you were distracted and speeding. Its best to own up now while you can. Think about it. Youve admitted being distracted while driving. An offence that on its own carries penalties.

 

In my view its best to own up asap so you avoid much harsher penalties. Especially as you were going more than the limit. You have no way around this, as youve already admitted speeding here and being distracted.

[sgtbush]

I can see the road markings clearly in the pics.

Accept the fine as advised above

[imcallumwbu]

They dont have to be readable. Just the first one to identify the vehicle. For instance you could have been going so fast that the camera would only be able to take a pic once with your vehicle in, and the second flash would capture empty road. This would simply mean you were going too fast for the camera to capture the second one ( and yes, they would know what speeds the camera can detect).

 

As i already said, you have already admitted here you were distracted and speeding. Its best to own up now while you can. Think about it. Youve admitted being distracted while driving. An offence that on its own carries penalties.

 

In my view its best to own up asap so you avoid much harsher penalties. Especially as you were going more than the limit. You have no way around this, as youve already admitted speeding here and being distracted.

 

so you think just plead guilty and hope they honor the fine reduction? is it better to plead guilty and attend court or plead guilty and not attend court?

 

is it worth mentioning i missed the road signs and the fact i just assumed it was a dual carriageway?

[renegadeimp]

All im doing is offering my opinion. In my view you have no way to mitigate this unless you lie, and thats never a good thing in court.

 

If you missed road signs, then you admit you werent concentrating or being careful, and in the courts eyes, you could have blatantley ignored it as it was a clear straight road and youre looking to make an excuse.. The court would say what if a child or pedestrian stepped out, or a cyclist etc? They wouldnt stand a chance. Remember, they have heard every single excuse you can think of. And more.

 

If you plead guilty, its much better to be very apologetic and dont make excuses. You know you were speeding, so the choice to make is now yours.

 

As an aside, if there was a way to mitigate this, we would definitley advise you of it. However in this instance, i cant see any due to what youve already said here. Youre very likely to get 6 points guaranteed and a fine based on yoru income. Unless youre unlucky enough to get a zero tolerance judge . ( Be glad you dont live in north wales, the police here love to throw the book at drivers)

[Hungrydoug]

so you think just plead guilty and hope they honor the fine reduction? is it better to plead guilty and attend court or plead guilty and not attend court?

 

is it worth mentioning i missed the road signs and the fact i just assumed it was a dual carriageway?

 

Even if you missed the signs, you should have seen the street lighting indicating a 30mph limit until informed otherwise. And no need to assume it is a dual carriageway, it clearly is, but again the street lights indicate a 30 limit.

[imcallumwbu]

A lot of people have indicated the street light thing for when you miss a sign, fair enough its common sense, but surely common sense cannot be relied upon in court? I dont recall anything during learning to drive, theory tests, or highway code that says if theres lights on the road it is a 30mph zone

 

I think one sign one a dual carriageway which can be easily missed in the dark is not sufficient... i have already pleaded guilty, but i think its unfair and maybe thats the reason its the regions highest earning camera... js

[renegadeimp]

DOnt try using those excuses in court. Highway code says that street lamps at a certain distance apart in built up areas denotes a set speed limit.

 

And how is it unfair? You admitted speeding because you were distracted. Take it on the chin this time and try not to do it again. And it may be the highest earning camera because people keep ignoring CLEARLY posted signs and limits. If people didnt speed and people looked at the signs and followed them... it wouldnt make a penny.

[imcallumwbu]

I admitted guilt so I know I was in the wrong and my mistake 100%, but i think the road should be signposted more, and since it is the highest earning camera maybe the council need to re-evaluate just WHY so many people are making the mistake... i dont have all the answers but clearly there is a fundamental issue with the roads signposting

[renegadeimp]

It doesnt need to be. Theres clear signage and road markings that denote the speed limit. You simply were too distracted to notice them. It happens. You admitted guilt, so its time to chalk it to to a mistake, and move on.

 

And you say so many people make the mistake.. simple. They dont concentrate. It has nothing to do with signage or road markings. They just tunnel vision and block out signage, when they need to realise, when theyre driving, you need to have full concentration around you and the vehicle.

[renegadeimp]

Infact., looking at google street view it is CLEARLY not a 60mph road. Its a built up area with bus stops, houses on the side and residential areas.

 

If people honestley think its a 60mph limit... perhaps the fines etc need to be raised. Theres even a sign just before the speed camera signs that show a warning that a school is ahead.

[Hammy1962]

OMG, 63 in a 30 and you think its unfair.....................................

 

H

[Aretnap]

Anyways, they are really poor quality and you cant see the road markings etc however the camera clocked me at 63, could i plead innocent and say the camera was faulty and since they cant prove the speed by way of road markings my punishment should be lenient or dismissed?

The Gatso's primary speed measurement comes from the radar device - the distance you have travelled between the two photographs simply acts as a secondary or back-up check. The markings on the road look pretty clear to me. And even if they weren't clear there is an approved technique for carrying out the secondary check using photogrammetry - so the lines are only there for convenience, they are not actually required for a successful prosecution.

 

A lot of people have indicated the street light thing for when you miss a sign, fair enough its common sense, but surely common sense cannot be relied upon in court? I dont recall anything during learning to drive, theory tests, or highway code that says if theres lights on the road it is a 30mph zone

That would be Highway Code Rule 123 - "The 30 mph limit usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise". The actual law is found in the Road Traffic Regulation Act sections 81 and 82.

 

I think one sign one a dual carriageway which can be easily missed in the dark is not sufficient... i have already pleaded guilty, but i think its unfair...

Well, the streetlights themselves are the signs that it's a 30mph limit. Road sign regulations actually prohibit putting 30 repeaters on a road with street lighting (other than the combined 30/speed camera sign which they have there). It would be impractical to put them on every road in towns and cities, and putting them on some street-lit roads but not others would probably cause more confusion than it solved. How would you decide which ones to put them on? How would you deal with all the people saying "yeah, but this road doesn't have repeaters but that other vaguely similar road does, so surely it's unfair to prosecute me for speeding"? Overall it would just end up diluting the clear rule that a road with streetlights is 30mph unless signs show otherwise.

 

I'm afraid that nothing you've said suggests that you have any defence. Pleading guilty and sounding contrite is probably your best option.