Arrow/RestonsClaimform - Old Egg Loan - CCJ - Now AOE request

[barafear799]

Andy,

as I wasn't at the March SJ hearing and I didn't receive a full explanation from the court, I cannot comment.

 

 

But their letter suggests it was adjourned for negotiation to take place on a settlement and for them to produce the t&c.

 

 

The negotiations consisted of the offer of £2500 later changed to £9400.

They're also claiming costs of almost £500

 

Is this a case I can be successful in, due to the lack of proper t&C's produced?

 

 

Or could the judge be swayed by the alleged signed credit agreement they produced last year?

[AndyOrch]

If all it hinges on is whether they can disclose the true T&Cs for the agreement at the time of inception.....I suppose it could go either way.Nothing in that upload sways me to think they are the true T&Cs or can be proved to be.

 

So thats the direction you must take...they could be from anywhere and in connection to any Egg Loan Agreement ?

 

The fact that they have gone to the trouble to submit a further witness statement smacks of desperation and simply regurgitates points raised in the initial witness statement...bar the brief paragraph of the T&Cs and their costs.

[barafear799]

Many thanks as usual.

I'm just trying to get prepared for tomorrow.

 

from my own evidence,

I have a copy of my original defence which I filed online way back when they issued the claim.

 

Then I have my witness statement which was sent to the March hearing where they tried to get a SJ against me.

 

Should I also show/mention the offer of £2500 they made soon after the March hearing (albeit they claim it was an error and the offer was changed to £9400)?

 

Should I be referring to any other cases in my evidence/arguments?

Or should I simply refer to the section of the CCA that they have failed to adhere to: namely requirement of Section 127

(subsection 3 and 4) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 to provide "all the prescribed terms of the agreement"?

 

This is a large amount they are chasing me for,

I want to be as prepared as I can be to defend myself.

 

Your assistance is much appreciated.

 

Thanks, Bf

[AndyOrch]

You pretty much have it covered..I would also advise section 61 CCA1974 and Section 77 CCA1974.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 sec 127 (3) which was revoked in the 2006 Amendments, however the amendment was not retrospective. Therefore 127 (3) of the 1974 Act applies to consumer credit agreements executed prior to April 2007.

 

127 (3)

 

Original CCA 1974

 

(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1) (a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document ..whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer ....whether or not in the prescribed manner

 

Lets hope you get a decent District Judge.

 

Andy

[barafear799]

Cheers. Let's (hope)!!

[barafear799]

reading the reconstituted t&cs they've sent me, clause 27 refers to PPI - there's no mention on the credit agreement of PPI and I have no recollection of it.

 

wonder whether mentioning that clause would help to prove it could not have been my personal t&cs

 

Also mentions the T&C for this separate "product" - obviously those t&c have also not been included.

 

We will pay the premium for your Loan Payment Protection cover specified in the agreement to the insurer on your behalf.

The terms and conditions governing this insurance are explained in the agreement and the Egg Personal Loan Payment Protection Policy document supplied to you.

 

By signing this agreement, you confirm that you have read and understood the terms and conditions of the Egg Personal Loan Payment Protection Policy document.

[AndyOrch]

Keep digging you will find conclusive evidence eventually that the T&Cs are from the back of the filling cabinet and airbrushed to match

[barafear799]

my main course of defence is that as my agreement is pre-2007 the reconstituted T&Cs are not acceptable. I am referring to the CCA 1974 section 127 parts (3) and (4), specifically because the t&c they have provided do not bear my signature?

 

The legal jargon in the CCA is a bit hard to follow sometimes.

 

I've also checked out s61.

That appears to be just clarification that the agreement is not properly executed without the signed terms.

 

Am I right to assume then that there should/would have been a separate signature box on the T&C along with the credit agreement?

 

i.e. could it be argued that they have my signature and these t&c they've dug up were "attached in some way" to the document that is signed?

 

I know they've probably admitted it themselves by stating they've enclosed reconstituted t&cs.

 

My hearing is expected to take 45 mins, but I'm feeling this should be a "slam dunk" and I will be out, successfully, in 5 mins?

[AndyOrch]

No ...T&C do not require a signature...the agreement only.....you are trying to prove that the disclosed T&Cs are not the T&Cs from inception.

 

Section 77 is incomplete without the agreement and T&Cs and a statement of account....so if incomplete then they have not fulfilled your request and remain in default.

 

They have to prove they are the correct T&Cs...onus is on them not you ...its not your claim.

 

Then move to the Reconstituted version for faults..in case the court accepts it even though your agreement is pre April 2007 and therefore sec 127 (3) applies..as my post #105

[barafear799]

Oh dear. Case found against me.

 

 

Sec 127 did not apply because the judge said that Arrow were not seeking enforcement, just judgement.

Is there a difference?

 

 

Their lawyer quoted the HSBC v Carey case stating that reconstituted agreements were ok.

I stated that applied to post 2007 agreements.

 

 

Judge asked me to show him that judgement, I did not have it.

Also awarded them costs of £2500!

 

Didn't turn out well, but very grateful for the help.

Don't suppose I have right of appeal?

[AndyOrch]

" the judge said that Arrow were not seeking enforcement, just judgement."

 

 

Are you sure it was a Judge ?

[barafear799]

Seems I didn't get a good judge. I was tempted to ask the difference, but he looked quite stern

[AndyOrch]

Enforcement = To compel observance of or obedience to: enforce a law.

 

Judgment = The obligation, especially a debt, arising from a judicial decision....which then allows the claimant to enforce

[barafear799]

I can't appeal, can I?

[AndyOrch]

Not much point Im afraid Bf..probably get the same judge...now what about paying the judgment ?

 

You will have to wait until you get Notice of Judgment and see if its a forthwith payment or monthly...if its forthwith go to the CAG Legal Library and complete the the N245. This will vary the judgmnet to monthly payment that you propose as affodable..there is an I&E which you complete and a proposed monthly payment box...the fee is £50 unless you are exempt from court fees.

[barafear799]

Guessing the judge would make it forthwith!!

No way I can afford that!!

Even monthly payments would take me 10 years to repay!!

Too late to do Tomlin?

 

Thanks for assistance.

Not feeling great at the moment

[AndyOrch]

No you cant propose a Tomlin Order after judgment.......Its not a nice feeling...but try to be positive if you hadn't defended then it would have been the same outcome last Dec15.....but at least you tried.

 

Edit... I was going to question costs but this was Fast Track

 

Do you have a breakdown of their costs ?

[barafear799]

If I do monthly payments, would this necessitate attachment of earnings?

[barafear799]

Yes I have a breakdown of their costs!!

 

Not surprisingly, they don't seem to add up!! I'm almost beyond caring.

 

£444 for various staff working on case, including letters , telephone calls etc.

We then have "attendance at hearing", with nothing entered, but subtotal mysteriously becomes £1044.

Then court costs of £760 added on,

then LPC law attendance fee ,

2 lots of £135;

£100 fixed costs on issuing.

Then VAT added!!

[AndyOrch]

If I do monthly payments, would this necessitate attachment of earnings?

 

No...you simply set a standing order once its been agreed the court.

[barafear799]

How is it decided what I can/ should pay?

Would I be pushed to prove my expenditure?

What would happen if my offer takes 15 years to repay?

[AndyOrch]

How is it decided what I can/ should pay? Would I be pushed to prove my expenditure? What would happen if my offer takes 15 years to repay?

 

Subject to what you put on the I&E within the N245 and what expendable income remains.You shouldn't need to prove anything if your figures are a true reflection of affairs.

 

Then it takes 15 years to pay...your not in a rush to pay them are you ?

[barafear799]

Ok, short and sweet.

I don't think there is any easy way out of this - but it's worth asking to see if there is something I haven't discovered.

 

CCJ obtained against me by Arrow Global/Restons - about 15 months ago.

It was for a significant amount of money - far more than I could afford to pay in a lump sum.

Paying by instalments was not an option made available at the time of the court hearing.

I subsequently arranged this with Restons directly.

The amount I could afford to pay meant a period of 11+ years to repay.

 

After making a few payments, I struggled to keep up - making either partial payments or late payments.

Eventually - they applied for an AOE order.

 

Initially I managed to get this suspended - so did not go to my employer - but I made the payments directly to Restons.

I made the first couple of payments in full and on time; the next one was about 10 days late and two further monthly payments between 12-15 days late.

The last payment was made on 11th Jan (due on 31 Dec)

 

- and then on/around 20 January, I received a letter (dated 10 Jan) stating it was a copy of a letter to my employer.

the suspended AOE had now become real/unsuspended.

 

At no stage did Restons contact me to "chase up" late payments - they clearly were just waiting to "enforce"

The whole reason for "suspending" is due to the nature of my job - which was/is at real risk given these developments.

I explained when making the application for suspended AOE.

 

- we are where we are

- and I probably need to deal with matters now rather than try to bury my head in the sand

- or wriggle out of it.

 

It's still rather galling given I know Arrow Global probably paid about 5p in the £ for the "so called debt" against which I am now "stuck".

 

Stime for questions:

 

Assuming I continue to work,

is there anyway to come to a "full and final" agreement to settle a CCJ

(and obviously get the AOE removed/ended)?

I'm assuming the answer is no...

 

....but.....

 

Here's some "silliness/stupidity" regarding the whole "late payment" to Restons.

 

Now that it's with my employer

- they're not going to get a payment for January

- because the form arrived too late to apply it to my January pay.

Furthermore, my employer has until the 19th of the following month to get the payment to the court.

 

Restons have taken this action and are actually making themselves worse off

- at least if I had continued to pay 10-15 days late, it's a whole lot better than they're going to be getting.

 

then there's the risk (I'm sure they thought I was bluffing or exaggerating the risk) of me losing my job and not having a salary to attach to.

 

In terms of possessions of value, I really do not have anything to get bailiffs involved.

 

- it appears these are the tactics that Restons use.....

.so I'm guessing my chances of reaching any further agreement is pretty slim.

 

Any help much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

Edited January 28, 2019 by dx100uk
format

[dx100uk]

tell us about the debt please

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?419198-You-have-received-a-Claim-What-you-need-to-do-**UPDATED-Jan-2019**

 

why didn't you defend it?

[barafear799]

Hi Dx,

Thanks for response.

CCJ claim was defended. I lost.

Details are on this site.

Just things have moved on to the stage where I now find myself.