HXCPM/Gladstones ANPR PCN Claimform - didnt buy ticket within 10 mins - Vulcans Lane CP, Workington, Cumbria

[Mrs O'Frog]

Okay - finally got into town yesterday, so here's a little bundle of photos.

Vulcans lane images.pdf

[brassnecked]

wonder if they've dropped themselves in it by referring to capturing CCTV images of "Bystanders" who may just be walking through the car park or past the entrance? The max 10 minutes to pay on the signs might not stack up either.

[lookinforinfo]

I notice that there is no mention of a reduction in payment as a result of early payment.

[dx100uk]

Registration number is showing on the second paragraph of the Keeper Liability Notice. page 3

hidden upload

 

dx

[lookinforinfo]

They have not proved their ten minute regulation as they have not stated your time of arrival nor the time you paid [unless you paid on leaving].

 

 

The NTK {though not called that}is worded incorrectly. The keeper is not REQUIRED to pay the charge they should be INVITED to pay, or inform the creditor of the name of the driver.

[brassnecked]

They would be very silly to do court they could fail on several points, from paperwork to signage, NTK (Not) looks non compliant as indicated by lookedinforinfo.

[shamrocker]

Out of interest,

what time have they stated you entered and left the land (or time frame)

- and which parking period did you subsequently pay for?

 

Have they stated how many minutes after you entered the land you then purchased a ticket?

 

Minor points in the greater scheme of things, but would be useful to help with context.

Edited February 3, 2019 by dx100uk
spacing

[ericsbrother]

OK sign on left refers to other signage to create a contract so either it is an invitation to treat and that menas you dont have to accept what is offered by the other signs or it is a contract and there is no mention of paying anyone £100 for any reason.

 

The actual contract is only fromed when you feed the meter so the terms on the ticket machine are those that mean anything.

As they dont metion charging you £100 for any reason you cant be lawfully charged for any breach

 

Specifially what they say about the 10 minute grace period isnt a contractual term, that would apply regardless so you cant actually breach a condition of acceptance to their ATA.

It is like when car parks used to display signs saying that you have to display your tax disk to remain there - utter cobblers as there is case law that says otherwise and like the old "driver seen leaving site" ticket, makes the whole contract void if you choose not to be bound by its terms and that is not the prerogative of the parking co.

 

agree with shamrocker though, post up your entry and exit times so we know how much of a difference there is

Edited February 4, 2019 by dx100uk
spacing

[ImagePlay]

Thanks all for the replies, and thanks Mrs O'Frog for the images.

I've been working away and returned to a third letter.

I've attached all three and hopefully I've finally got the hang of blocking out ALL my personal details!

Sorry dx100uk!

 

The letter states I arrived at 15.27 and left at 22.46.

I paid £4 which covered me for 12 hours.

It was dark and raining heavily (no excuse) so I didn't stand and read the signs.

I only had £3 in change so went off to get another pound.

 

I was delayed in the local theatre cafe as there was no one serving.

I gave up and went into the theatre and borrowed £1 from one of my colleagues.

This obviously took more than 10 minutes.

I went back and paid the £4, giving me 12 hours of parking time.

 

At present I cannot find the ticket, which is annoying as I always keep my tickets for expense claims.

But, as the charge letter clearly states the charge is for failing to display a ticket within 10 minutes, they are not claiming that I didn't pay for parking.

parkcharge 3.pdf

[ericsbrother]

so no breach of a specific contratual term because the 10 minute grace period is mandatory as a MINIMUM, it isnt an offer of 10 minutes free parking otherwise they have to give you 20 minutes including the grace period ( you wnt to loo for change after your free 10 minutes for example)

 

All of these parking co's amke their money from inventing unfair reasons to clobber you, the meter money goes to the landowner so they need to bill people for invented breaches to earn a crust.

Edited February 7, 2019 by honeybee13
Paras, typos

[ImagePlay]

I received a 'letter before claim' from Gladstones on March 6th 2019.

I did not respond and have now received a letter from County Court Business Centre asking for £239.

 

I am not willing to pay this as I feel I paid for 12 hours parking and the dispute over not paying in the first 10 minutes unreasonable.

I understand I shouldn't ignore the court letter, but can anyone recommend how I should proceed.

I'm happy to go to court.

 

Thanks in advance.

[ericsbrother]

the first thing to do is acknowledge the claim.

You can do this my logging on to moneyclaim.gov.uk and following the instructions.

 

If you can post up their particulars of claim so we can comment as usually they are so lacking in detail you will have half of your response done for you.

 

half of their claim is for money that cant be owed if they are suing you as  the keeper but tey normally fail to mention in what capacity they are claiming you are liable and prefer to muddle the driver and keeper together when they are VERY separate in law

 

dont file a defence yet, you have another fortnight at least to do that and you can spend some of that timeusefuly by sending them a CPR 31.14 request for documents and give them 14 days to respond.

That will still give you some time to put in your defence when they fail to respond.

 

What you want to see in the CPR 31.14 is  sight of the contract with the landowner that assigns them the right to enter into contracts wiht the public and to make civil claims in their own name.

 

You also want to see the planning permission granted for their cameras and signage.

Now there are 2 separate laws that apply for the cameras and signs so let them be the ones to work out which they have got if any.

 

If they dont respond within the 14 days you give them you can state that you dont believe they have the necessary permissions and then cant form contracts and so no locus standi or cause for action

[dx100uk]

please complete this:

 

 

[ImagePlay]

I've attached the court letter. It states I agreed to pay within 28 days but I have had made no contact with the company whatsoever. I paid £4 for 12 hours parking at around 15.45 and left at 22.46. The only rule of theirs I have contravened is taking more than 10 minutes to pay after arriving. They have made no loss.

 

 

And here is the original PCN. It clearly states that the charge is failing to purchase a pay and display ticket within the 10 minute grace period. 

 

 

Am I right in presuming that the 10 minute grace period contravention indicates that they know I've paid? As I didn't know there was a problem on the night, I didn't keep the ticket, but if they were claiming I hadn't paid at all, would that be stated in the Contravention  of Terms or Conditions box?

 

Just another detail, in the particulars it states the car park is 'Vulcans Lane Work'. That should read 'Workington'.

[dx100uk]

i've removed numerous images posted directly to the topic that we dont need to see..

 

can you please do as asked and complete the following 

so we have all the correct info

in the correct format to be able to correctly advise you.

 

please follow CAG's tried and tested advise by helping us to help you./

 

dx

 

[ericsbrother]

with regard to the lack of a full address,

is there another Vulcans Lane anywhere? 

If not then they have identified the land.

 

Where this becomes important would be for example a parking co saying you were at  Sainsburys, London. 

Now that doesn't identify any particular place and saying  Smith St london when the car park you were in was Jones St, about half a mile away from their named location would also lose them their claim as again it doesn't identify the land.

 

in more than 1 case we have seen  a parking co has been responsible for a small area in front of some shops and other companies responsible for their neighbours

 

so even getting Smith St righ wouldnt identify the land as there would be confusion as to which land and who has the authority to manage.

 

detail is crucial so you can deny their claim as you DID purchase so no cause for action.

If they were claiming for an overstay or incorrectly placing your ticket then they should say that is the cause for action.

they can change this later  when you hammer this point home but it will cost them another £50.

 

In the meanwhile you will be sending them (via Gladstones) a CPR 31.14 request for documents to have sight of their contract with the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contract with the public and to make civil claims in their own name and also for proof of planning permission for their cameras and signage ( 2 different planning laws)

 

so if they refer to 1 permission you ask the council exactly what was granted)

[FTMDave]

Any update here?

I ask as we have someone new being taken to court by HXCPM.