HXCPM/Gladstones ANPR PCN Claimform - didnt buy ticket within 10 mins - Vulcans Lane CP, Workington, Cumbria

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Hi, new to the forum, thanks in advance.

 

The PCN came though the post, ANPR capture, no ticket.

 

Date of infringement 08/12/2018.

NTK was issued on 12/12/2019 for £60. I've been working away, so effectively ignored it.

I received a Keeper Liability Notice on 16/01/2019 but I was still away and have just returned and opened it (28/01/2019).

Schedule 4 Protections of freedoms Act is mentioned.

I have made no contact with them.

The parking company is HX Carpark Management Ltd

The car park address is Vulcans Lane Car Park, Vulcans Lane, Workington, Cumbria CA14 2BP

They operate under the Independent Appeals Service.

 

The charge is for failing to purchase a ticket within 10 minutes of arriving at the car park. I was working at the theatre near by and went to get change from the theatre shop. It took longer than 10 minutes. I'm trying to find the payment ticket. I think my employer has it. I'm chasing him now.

 

Any advice on the best course of action would be appreciated. Today 28/01/19 is the deadline for the £100 payment, according to their rules.

 

 

Thanks.

[dx100uk]

scan up the NTK Both sides to one multipage pdf

read upload.

 

pers id ignore them

there is a minimum of 10mins grace period and no stated maximum

 

thread title updated

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Here is a copy of the two letters received.

parkcharge-compressed.pdf

[dx100uk]

upload hidden

ref no showing

thread title updated nothing to do with 10mins grace period

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Thanks. I’ll re upload the letters with the references removed.

 

I don’t understand why it has nothing to do with the 10 minute grace period. I thought the charge was because I'd taken longer than 10 minutes after arrival to pay for parking. It was dark and raining heavily and I didn’t read the small print. I struggled to find change within 10 minutes.

[dx100uk]

no you stayed for 7hrs..didnt pay ….but don't worry about that for now

[Mrs O'Frog]

This location is fairly local to my business. If you're not from the area I'm happy to get some photos of signs etc next time I nip to the bank.

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Thanks for the photo offer Mrs O'Frog. I’m from Chester so that would be appreciated. Regarding the charge, I did pay for my stay in full and some. The issue was I took longer than 10 minutes from arrival to paying. Am I missing something?

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Mrs O'Frog, I can see the roadside sign on Google Street and it looks like theres a 10 minute warning there. If possible, a shot of the sign at the pay area would be useful. Thanks very much.

[Mrs O'Frog]

Wow, that is a good trek away! No problem, I need to nip through later this week so I'll take some snaps of signs in and around the area.

[dx100uk]

no the issue is you failed to purchase a ticket for the +4hrs you parked there

the 10mins is totally immaterial.

 

have you checked they have planning permission for their signs and ANPR cameras/poles?

 

dx

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Hi dx100uk. Thanks for following this. I'm not sure how to check if they have planning permission.

 

To clarify my query, I paid for parking for the time required. I didn't pay as soon as I arrived as I didn't have change.

I went and got change from the theatre near by but it took more than 10 minutes.

 

I returned to the car park, entered my registration, paid the full amount, put my ticket on the dashboard, did my job and left.

 

The only thing I can see I contravened was the 10 minute grace period to pay at the beginning.

 

The ANPR saw me arrive, and the machine accepted my payment after the 10 minute grace period, but with no warning that I had broken a rule.

The charge doesn't state that I didn't pay, just that I didn't pay within the first ten minutes. I definitely paid.

parkcharge.pdf

[Mrs O'Frog]

I can't see POFA 2012 quoted on the NtK, but I'll leave that for the experts to confirm.

[dx100uk]

aha so I wasn't right or was I in the 1st place...

 

its atleast 10mins back to what I said.

they cant do anything.

 

thanks for clarifying..i wondered why they made that comment on the NTK..how stupid..

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No problem. It seems so petty that it's almost hard to believe. But they're just out to get money I suppose. So in your opinion, just sit tight?

[dx100uk]

oh yes

and sadly 99% of the population think they are fines and must be paid and obeyed..

[shamrocker]

ANPR used to capture the vehicle details, and NOK received over a month after the event - right?

[dx100uk]

hey so it is...so they think the same as I did .. ANPR capture times outside of 14 days..good spot

cant see the tree for the snow sometimes..[-6 where I am now]

[Ethel Street]

ImagePlay,

 

Your full name is still showing on the PCN you attached to Post#12 (where it says "Dear Mr ...").

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Sorry, I'll try again with the images.!

 

The dates are

 

8/12/18 Date of parking

 

12/12/18 First letter sent

 

14/01/19 Second letter sent

parkcharge.pdf

[Mrs O'Frog]

I'm reading it as the original PCN/Ntk was 12/12 (i.e. 4 days after the event) and it was just the notice of transfer of liability to keeper that arrived a month later? Still, I don't think the PCN/Ntk was POFA compliant anyway so they can still go whistle.

 

Edit - ah yes, our posts crossed - that's what I thought.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Mrs O'Frog
crossed posts

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So if there's no PoFA 2012 mentioned in the paperwork, then it's non compliant, therefore invalid? And now time has passed so too late for them anyway?

[Mrs O'Frog]

It's not invalid, it just means that they cannot transfer liability from the driver to the keeper. So as long as you never have & never will tell them who was driving (and you're under no obligation to do so) they can't hold the keeper liable. It won't stop them trying, indeed their second letter claiming they have transferred liability is a crock. I'm not sure how litigious these people are but I'm sure you'll have a nice little pile of letters to come from various debt collectors etc. Just ignore them but keep them safely filed and come back if you ever receive a letter before action/claim.

[Mrs O'Frog]

Here's a virtually identical case. It'll give you an idea of what to expect going forward. http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=121523&st=0

[ericsbrother]

so they are claiming you didnt pay within the 10 minute grace period but that for them is not a contractual issue, they ahve to allow this period as a minimum to let you read the signs etc and go and get change.

 

The point is you did pay the prescribed fee for the period your vehicle was there. This menas that they suffered no loss and courts wont be happy to sit through an hour listening to someon explaining how it is proper they bill you £100 for paying them the correct amount as agreed at the outset just because they dont offer an alternative method of controlling access to the site ( barrier and timed ticket for example). The parking cos' always want it both ways because they make more money from their enforcement of suspect rules then they ever do from cars actually parking. In many cases it is their only source of icome so thery will do and say anything to screw money out of people.

 

Lets see the signage at the entrance and what offer was made via the blurb on the ticket machine and we can take it from there. So far HXP are in a weak position but hopefully we can find somehting that kills them off

Edited January 31, 2019 by honeybee13
Paras, typos