Abbey - A New Argument? ***SETTLED IN FULL***

[JimTheGent]

Greetings everyone.

 

I have been following the progress of various threads on this board and it does make interesting reading. By the time I came here I had already sent a letter to Abbey requesting refund of charges and today I got their reply to this letter. Although it is a standard print-out, it contains bits I don't think have been seen before. In my case, I have had no charges at all since 2002. But over a between 2000 and 2002 when I was being divorced, the Abbey hit me with £1100+ in charges. So I decided I would have a bash at getting my money back.

 

Below is my initial letter to Abbey (editied to remove personal details):

 

05 April 2006

 

Abbey

PO Box 382, Prescot Street, London E1 8RP

 

Re: Default charges on account number XXXXXXXX Sort Code XX-XX-XX

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I refer to default charges which have been applied to my account by Abbey (formerly Abbey National), amounting to One Thousand, One Hundred and Eighty Eight Pounds, Seventy Six Pence (£1188.76) between June 2000 and 1st September 2002

 

I have been a loyal customer of Abbey (formerly Abbey National) since 1998. I have always maintained my account well and believe the charges applied to my account do not reflect the cost to the bank of my account going into unauthorised overdraft. It is my opinion these charges are punitive and punishing, which I am sure you will agree is unfair.

 

I therefore ask you to repay the amount of all these charges with an appropriate sum for missed interest which I will leave to your discretion. The sum of One Thousand, One Hundred and Eighty Eight Pounds, Seventy Six Pence (£1188.76) relates to charges levied by the Abbey (formerly Abbey National) Between June 2000 and 1st September 2002.

 

I am happy for you to contact me on XXXX XXX XXXX to discuss the matter.

Yours faithfully

 

This is where the fun starts. I got their standard print-out acknowledgement letter 10 days later saying the matter will be investigated throughly, blah, blah blah. It will take four weeks.etc etc etc. So far, So Good.

 

Then on 18 April I received a letter dated 14 April. Again it looks like a standard printo-out but this one contains some important statements from Abbey. In fact I am actually quite stunned by their arrogant and threatening tone. In particular note their comments about 2005 and also their 60 day challenge rule. It seems too they are saying the recent rule is incorrect because they think their charges are fine. Also, the spelling and grammatical errors are theirs (not mine), I have transcribed it exactly as it is written in the letter.

 

Here is their response dated 14 April 2006

 

Dear xxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter of 5 April 2006

 

Checking back on your account I can find no charges having been incurred on your account since January 2005.

 

Charges are notified on your statement and if you wish to query any item on it, you must contact us within 60 days of the staement date. If we don't heard from you within this time period you'll be deemed to have agreed with all the items on the statement.

 

We don't accept that Abbey's charges are unfair. It's well known that banks make charges and Abbey's charges are in line with those of other banks. The terms and conditions of the account and the charges that apply are clear and fair and were provided to you at the time that you opened it. You freely agreed to the terms and conditions and the charges when you opened the acount. You weren't under any obligation to do so and could have gone to another bank if you didn't agree to our charges. Equally, you're free to move your account to another nank at any time if you don't agree with them.

 

In any event, we don't agree that the charges are disproportionate. They are reasonable and proportionate to the administrative costs incurred by Abbey in dealing with the matter.

 

If the complaint escalates into a claim in the County Court, we'll review each case individually and if we feel that our relationship with our customer has broken down completely, we may decide to give notice to close the account under the terms and conditions.

 

An investigation of the charges relating to your complaint has been carried out. As they've all been applied in line with our current tariff of charges and haven't arisen as a result of proven Abbey error, no further refunds will be applied.

 

Please be assured I've carried out a full investigation for you and I hope you feel I've offered a fair response to all the issues you've raised. I'll keep your file open for the next eight weeks and if I don't hear from you within that time, I'll assume that everything is resolved and will close your file.

 

If you remain dissatisfied though, the leaflet you'll find with this letter explains your rights and how to take your complaint further with Abbey. The leaflet also explains your ultimate right to refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service

 

yours sincerely

 

Jackie Hammond

Banking Service

 

 

So the question I have now is how best to respond. They clearly have not investigated the complaint at all. At first trying to get my money back was a bit of an interesting diversion for me and I never expected to win, but now I am absolutely furious. Effectively they are sticking two fingers up at me and saying "Up Yours!". Considering I have been their customer for so many years, it really gets under my skin to discover they do not value my custom at all.

 

Any ideas on how to word the response so it is as scathing as possible without being blatantly abusive. I am now prepared to fight through the courts on this (takes off shirt and rolls up sleeves, starts pumping iron )

 

Time I think to turn up the pressure on them and I am also going to complain to the FSA given thair statement about them thinking their charges are fine and also threeatening to close my account.

[HD]

Charges are notified on your statement and if you wish to query any item on it, you must contact us within 60 days of the staement date. If we don't heard from you within this time period you'll be deemed to have agreed with all the items on the statement.

 

.

 

Deemed by whom?

 

so any errors made by a bank you have 60days to object. They really do think they are above the law don't they.

[JimTheGent]

Deemed by whom?

 

so any errors made by a bank you have 60days to object. They really do think they are above the law don't they.

 

Considering their statement saying they think their charges are fair and the recent ruling about the charges being punitive and illegal, I have to agree with you. They do think they are above the law and can do what they like with OUR money.

 

Has anyone got a copy of their terms and conditions from 1998? I want to know if it says there are 60 days to challenge the charges or if this is a recent change to their T&C.

[ukdickie31]

Firstly, if you haven't already done so, open up a new bank account and get any DD's etc transferred over... just in case they close your account.

 

Ignore what they say about T&C's. They are just fobbing you off and trying to make you go away.

 

Send them the 2nd letter, give them a strict 14 day deadline and be prepared to file a claim under Moneyclaim.

 

Don't back out. Keep going. Keep to YOUR deadlines, don't extend them.

 

You will get you money back.

 

 

Good Luck and get writing that 2nd letter !!

[Spiceskull]

Hi Jim,

 

I think the points you raise about the response you received are spot on - they don't give a toss, and they are trying to tell you that there is nothing you can do.

 

Therefore you really need to lay it out in black and white for them. Timetable, actions, repurcussions. Their reference to the Ombudsman is a diversionary tactic, and you need to make them aware that you WILL take that route, but in your own time.

 

The other interesting line, which has been discussed elsewhere is in the FAQs, is the threat of account closure if court action is commenced. Would suggest you read this thread, and enlighten the bank about what will happen should they decide to close the account in these circumstances: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/announcement.php?f=5&a=4

 

Good luck.

[Seminole]

Their response is rubbish. They may truly believe what they say but it is still rubbish.

 

Don't let it deflect you from the path. If you know what your charges are, simply proceed to the Letter Before Action and then the good news.

 

You never know, maybe one day this bunch of johny-no-stars will get the message.

[JimTheGent]

Thanks for the advice and comments everyone. It has spurred me on to draft the response letter before action. Based on the ones in these forums, this is my response. Please tell me if you think anything needs changing:

 

HERE IS MY RESPONSE TO ABBEY

 

Further to your letter dated 18th April 2006, I have now had the opportunity to consider your responses. I was astonished by the threatening and dismissive tone of your letter, not to mention being appalled at the volume of grammatical errors.

 

Your letter states you have investigated my complaint thoroughly. Clearly this is not the case. Had you actually investigated my complaint, you would first have read through my initial letter which stated the charges to which I refer were applied to my account between June 2000 and 1st September 2002, however your response states:

 

"I can find no charges having been incurred on your account since January 2005"

 

Please could you explain to me how the period June 2000 and 1st September 2002 relates to January 2005 in this matter.

 

Furthermore, I do not accept your comments about a 60 day time limit to query any Bank charges. Please could you provide me with a copy of your Terms and Conditions which were in force at the date and time my account was opened and clearly point out exactly where they mention the 60 day time limit. I require original documentation from the date the account was opened, not copies or recent documentation, nor amended Terms and Conditions.

 

I must also take issue with your statement "We don't accept that Abbey's charges are unfair". As you are well aware The OFT has announced these penalty charges are unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs 1999 and are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations..

 

Regarding your threat to close my account, I will be reporting this threat to the OFT. You are attempting to take retaliatory action against me because I am seeking to recover unfair charges levied on my account. Such retaliatory action is also unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regs 1999.

 

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time I opened my account. It is an implied term of this contract you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law. I am frankly shocked you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary.

 

I calculate you have taken £XXXXX plus £XXX which you have charged me in overdraft interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £XXXXX. These calculations relate to the period June 2000 and 1st September 2002. I am also seeking repayment of lost interest which, given your recent dismissive and threatening communication, I will no longer leave to your discretion and will be calculated a the rate of 8% compounded daily.

 

Additionally I understand you may have entered a default notice against my credit record. If this is the case, this default occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you or was the result of impecuniosity caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges which you had applied unlawfully to my account.

 

In addition to full payment of the sum mentioned above I require you remove any default entry from the register. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable.

 

I require repayment in full of this money and removal of the default notice. If you do not comply fully within 14 days then I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount plus interest plus a claim under ss.7 and 13 of the Data Protection Act 1998 plus my costs and without further notice.

 

Furthermore, I shall submit a Consumer Credit Act 1974 complaint to the OFT upon the basis that you have failed to comply with the OFT's direction of 5 April 2006 and are therefore not a 'fit and proper person' to hold a consumer credit licence under the 1974 Act. If you do not understand what this means then seek advice from your legal department.

[Jane Austen]

Completely irrelevant to your case, I know but I'm really pleased you mentioned their grammatical errors. I have also pointed this out to them. They must employ a large proportion of semi-illiterate people.

 

Good luck

[JimTheGent]

Completely irrelevant to your case, I know but I'm really pleased you mentioned their grammatical errors. I have also pointed this out to them. They must employ a large proportion of semi-illiterate people.

 

Good luck

 

Did you noitce I also alluded to the fact they cannot read either because had they read my letter they would know it had nothing to do with 2005.

 

I was seriously tempted to add a £150 fee with associated invoice for my own costs in having to write the reply, then challenge them to refuse paying it because it is not a true reflection of my costs. At this stage I decided against it but the next letter will include a tariff of charges which will be levied if I have to spend any time responding to them, including telephone calls, reading their letters etc etc. Of course, the minute they replied, these charges would automatically come into effect by default under the terms of contract in the letter. And of course these charges would be hugely inflated. Two can play their game

[Seminole]

I assume that you are joking. Such costs would be irrecoverable at least in the small claims track.

 

If you start playing games with Abbey you are playing their game. Keep it simple and follow the path.

[JimTheGent]

I assume that you are joking. Such costs would be irrecoverable at least in the small claims track.

 

If you start playing games with Abbey you are playing their game. Keep it simple and follow the path.

 

I was half joking but it would in fact be interesting to see how they would argue successfully the charges are not true refections of costs incurred. Particularly if the charges levied were identical to their own and they are arguing their own charges are reflective of the costs incurred. Of course, I know you would not win in the small claims track, but it would be really good fun to call their bluff and see their response. However, I don't want to play games with them at this stage - however tempting this may be

[JimTheGent]

As you all know I sent a strongly worded second letter (LBA) to the Abbey on 21 April 2006 outlining the complaint and giving them 14 days to pay my money or face court action. I heard nothing but given the fact there are Bank Holidays and weekends I decided to wait until today before taking action. Sure enough I received not one but THREE letter this morning - all identical, all dated 4th May 2006 (Today is 9th May)

 

"Dear JimTheGent

 

I have just received details of your complaint and I am sorry to hear that we have not yet been able to resolve your concerns. One of my team will look at the relevant facts, review any paperwork and talk to the people involved, so that they fully understand the problem.

 

I know it is important to you that we resolve your complaint quickly. However we want to do a thorough investigation and this can take time. We will investogate your concern fully and reply withing four weeks.

 

Although I do not kow what the outcome will be, I do hope that we will be able to find a solution that you are happy with.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Marc Winder

Head of Complaints"

 

 

This looks to me like another standard letter which is being used to stall for time. I am trying to decide if I should write back reinforcing the timescales (give them 7 days) or to go straight ahead with court proceedings.

 

Has anyone else received this letter and dealt with it? If so what action did you take?

 

Thanks all

 

Jim

[lipscombe]

Good luck Jim!!

 

Why do all their letter say 'we must investigate fully'. Investigate what!!! Surely they must realise everyone is complaining about the high cost of charges not why they have imposed them.

 

We all tentatively (excuse spelling) agreed these costs as all high street banks charge about the same and we could not get a current account otherwise!!

[dave]

I had similar responses.

 

They did not keep to my timescales, so I sued.

 

Guess what - I got my dosh back, plus interest and costs.

[Seminole]

It's just delaying tactics. Abbey are hoping that you get bored and fed up and that you will give up.

 

You don't want to do that, as Harry Enfield would say.

[Movingon]

Just go ahead with your action after your deadline expires.

[JimTheGent]

Just a quick update. I got another reply yesterday(16th) (abbey's reply is dated 8th May). Once again they rejected my complaint.

 

" I have carefully considered the points you have raised, namely that you feel the charges are contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Regulations 1999. The fact remains however that the charges in question were prompted by payment requests against insufficient available funds. As such they are valid and in line with our Terms and Conditions.

 

I note you say you are unhappy with the charges you have incurred from June 2000 until September 2002. However if you felt at any time the charges were unfair or incorrect then the matter should have been raised at the time."

 

If you have followed this thread you will recall I requested a copy of the Terms & Conditions in force at the time of opening my account. They state in their reply they do not have a copy of these terms and conditions but sent me an updated version (I specifically requested they do NOT send me an updated version).

 

The usual guff followed too about closing the account if the raltionship has broken down etc

 

This one stood out:

 

"As also previously advised, if the complaint escalates into a claim in the County Court, we will review each case individually and if we feel that our relationship with our cutomer has broken down completely, we may decide to give notice to close the account under our terms and conditions.

 

I accept you did not set out to incur charges. Ultimately however it is your responsibility to monitor your account and ensure there are sufficient funds in your account at all times. As such and given the above, I do not feel that a waiver of charges is justified. The charges in question therefore stand."

 

I will commence legal action today. Can anyone who has filed against Abbey tell me what to put in the Moneyclaim website form. I don't want to cock things up.

[dave]

The fact that they say it is your responsibility is a crock - there was a thread on here some time ago (can't remember much about it to search for it though) where a judge had ruled in the past that it was NOT the individuals responsibility as the bank is their fiduciary.

 

Secondly, it flies in the face of what the OFT has stated to say that if you take legal action to stand up for your statutory rights then they will terminate the contract.

 

I would send a scan of that letter to the OFT.

[thecornflake]

They "accept that you did not set out to incur charges", whcih is interesting. This may be useable against them in certain circumstances.

 

Threatening to close the account as a direct result of legal action against them is definitely wrong and I would report that straight away.

 

If you send them another letter I would ask in what way the charges were 'prompted'. This is very ambiguous and i would ask for confirmation of what this means. they haven't said 'caused manual intervention' or anythign - it sounds like they are admitting the charges to be penalties in which case they've stuffed themselves anyway.

[JimTheGent]

Thanks for the replies. I will be scanning all the correspondence and filing a complaint with the OFT. Interesting comment you made Cornflake. Would you like to expand a little on them?

 

Does anyone know which is the address for Abbey used to File the Action on the Moneyclaim website? I am filing the proceedings today. They have had enough opportunity to sort things out.

 

Thx

[Movingon]

There's been at least one poster who was told by an OFT representative that threatening to close the account if you take court action may be tantamount to a criminal offence, i.e. blackmail.

 

Again, I re-iterate the above point; scan/photocopy the letter and send it to the OFT and also the financial ombudsman. If a criminal offence has been committed you can bet that there will be SEVERE repercussions for Abbey; e.g. loss of Credit Licence etc.

[JimTheGent]

File the Claim via the Moneyclaim website (got charged £120 - is this normal??)

 

Will send the correspondence to the OFT tomorrow reporting the Abbey for potential breaches of their licence and attempted blackmail.

 

Will keep you all posted.

 

Oh and if anyone needs to know the address to serve proceedings use their registered office at the foot of your Bank Statement.

 

Hang in there all

 

Jim

[JimTheGent]

Quick Update. The Notice of Issue arrived from the Court today. It was sent to Abbey on the 18th May and will be deemed to have been served by the 23rd May.

 

They have until 6th June to reply, in which case they can pay the claim, or dispute it, or file a defence, or just file an acknowledgement. If they just acknowledge it they have 28 days from the date of service to contest it.

 

Anyway for those interested the claim number is 6QZ31860.

 

The gloves are off !

[thecornflake]

Which point did you want me to expand on?

 

I think you should have enough information now as to why threatening to close your account is illegal.

 

As for their statement accepting you did not set out to incur charges - This is interesting as it is admission by them that the sole resposibility for the charges lies with them. You didn't ask for them (obvioulsy) and also didn't knowingly do anything that you thought would incur a charge (you probably did know but this is how their wording could be read).

 

It means they charged you a penalty for something you did not intend to happen. I'm not sure how this fits in with the various legal arguments in use here, but it sounds to me like the kind of thing that could be used if used in conjunction with the right laws.

 

Then again, it could be nothing! I'm just guessing here.

 

I agree with everyone else - get a parachute account just in case and definitely report them for threatening to close the account. Oh, and carry on with your original claim of course!

[Quisitrix]

Hi Jim,

 

I think the points you raise about the response you received are spot on - they don't give a toss, and they are trying to tell you that there is nothing you can do.

 

Therefore you really need to lay it out in black and white for them. Timetable, actions, repurcussions. Their reference to the Ombudsman is a diversionary tactic, and you need to make them aware that you WILL take that route, but in your own time.

 

The other interesting line, which has been discussed elsewhere is in the FAQs, is the threat of account closure if court action is commenced. Would suggest you read this thread, and enlighten the bank about what will happen should they decide to close the account in these circumstances: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/announcement.php?f=5&a=4

 

Good luck.

 

This link isn't working for me. Has the thread in question been moved?