Southern Water/shumans/Shakespeare Martineau claim form - debts from 2007 - 1st claim struck out - now 2nd claim.

[dx100uk]

well done

 

debt self help forum

list your debts.

 

original creditor

type of credit

when taken out

defaulted date

who owns the debt now

outstanding balance

last payment date

[Bekki0405]

Ive noticed on some forums that people ask for help, sometimes urgently (like myself) and get great advice, which presumably they follow.

However, there is frequently no update, and so to readers coming in later and reading posts to assist themselves in a similar situation, they often can’t gauge whether to follow the advice, as the time thread dries up.

 

In order that my post last week doesn’t be follow that cycle, here is my current status.

 

I diligently followed the advice of DX and Bankfodder,

today I have received a letter from Shulmans and one from the Court.

 

The letter from the court states that the claimant may want to resolve any Dispute informally.

If it can’t be, the claimant will inform the court how it wishes to proceed.

 

The letter from Shulmans (the solicitors) states that their clients (Southern Water) wish to deal with this matter themselves, my, th year have therefore handed the matter over to them, and they have enclosed a Notice of Change.

 

Of course I phoned southern Water, spoke to a very helpful lady, who explained that she had it in her inbox to deal with it.

 

I was correct,

that quite a lot of the debt was SB and she would adjust the total outstanding,

take off as much as she was able to,

and email me the figure later today, and discuss a payment plan.

 

I believe the court issue is still there floating around, but it’s currently suspended (metaphorically speaking) whilst the figure is calculated.

I’m not entirely sure if the new figure will be subject to court proceedings or whether they would need to start again with a new claim form.

However, obviously I will be paying this before that even happens.

 

I know this is not the end of the story, and I’ve always accepted I will owe some, but I feel thankful to this site for helping me see the wood for the trees, and reduce my debt here, enabling me to use my money to pay off more debt elsewhere.

 

I will of course continue to update this thread as things happen, but I’ve already made a list of debt, paid off half of the smaller debts, and am using the money saved from here to up the monthly figures on the others (and make a donation to this site)

Edited January 17, 2019 by dx100uk
spacing

[dx100uk]

don't forget to make that other thread and list your debts as required above before you got BLINDLY paying other debts you might not HAVE too.

 

as for the court letter...

you mean as post 29?...its the std response that says the claimant has 28 days to do 'something' else the claim gets autostayed?

 

dx

[Bekki0405]

received std court response to my defence filing

 

It would appear that it’s out of my hands and in the claimants control as to what happens next. 

The debts we paid were outstanding amounts on current bills.

I have a list of actual debts which I’ll post on a debt sub forum.

[BankFodder]

Thanks for any donation – but I suggest that you sort out all of your debts first and then see what you have left over. You might be able to give us a much bigger donation than you ever imagined

 

 

 

Thank you very much indeed for updating us. You're absolutely right, a huge number of people get involved in discussions, receive our advice and then we never hear back from them. It is very demoralising for the people who help and it is very unhelpful for others who come along and read threads hoping to find answers to their problems.

 

Thanks again

[Bekki0405]

Well I make a commitment then to put into the pot when I’m able to stand up and say I’m debt free. This site has been a huge help and in a non judgemental way. I am going to need more advice, so I’m not going anywhere

 

Further to my update, Southern Water have replied with their position.

They have deducted all the interest charges, along with £1128.36 of charges which are statute barred as they are out of time.

They state that the outstanding charges including court fees are £3431.26.

 

They attach an admission form if I agree to this sum.

It is noted that this sum is still subject to court action, which I expected, and if I agree to this figure, and complete the admission form, they can agree a payment plan with me.

Of course this will mean a ccj against our names, which I was hoping to avoid

 

Xxxx ,

 

I am writing further to our telephone conversation earlier today concerning the County Court Claim which has been issued against you in respect of unpaid water services charges.

 

As you are aware the claim issued relates to charges for water services charges covering the period 11th July 2007 to 9th July 2008.

 

I would firstly confirm that I have removed the charges in the sum of £1,128.36 which covered the period 11th July 2007 to 2nd July 2008 as these charges are over 6 years old.

 

This has reduced the amount claimed to £3,431.26 and covers the period 11th January 2013 to 9th January 2013.

(There was no sum claimed covering the period 10th July 2008 to 10th January 2013)

I have not included interest and shall cancel this from the claim.

 

As such, the total sum now subject to the County Court Claim is £3,696.26 including costs and fees as shown on the claim form.

 

Should you now agree this sum, I would invite you to file a full admission, detailing your income & expenditure together with your offer of repayment.

 

If you offer of re-payment is accepted, a County Court Judgment shall be registered against you in the terms of your offer.

I have attached a copy of a full admission for completion.

 

In addition, upon receipt of your full admission, should you decide to file one, I can arrange for a member of our debt advice team to review your account and consider you for any schemes and tariffs that may be available.

 

Please be aware that any offer of repayment made on a full admission will only be in relation to the balance subject to Court action and not your future charges.

Our debt advice team will be able to look into repayments against your ongoing charges on reviewing your account.

 

Should you not agree to this revised balance, the matter shall continue to a Small Claims Hearing.

 

I trust this this is of assistance.

Should you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact me either by reply to this email or by phone on xxxx

 

Any suggestions where to go from here.

I’m attaching the text below so you can see the exact wording (redacted where personal info exists)

[dx100uk]

tell them you want to do a tomlin [consent] order to avoid the CCJ registration as that is unnecessary .

 

don't fill out the admittance form.

 

if you fail the tomlin later the CCJ WILL be registered.

 

much better idea.

[BankFodder]

How much can you afford to pay off now?

 

What have they done about the costs of the clam? The claim fee which they paid will have been based upon the larger sum - not the reduced claim figure

[BankFodder]

Actually I think the original claim and the adjusted claim fall within the same category on the fee scale – £3000-£5000 https://www.compactlaw.co.uk/compactlaw-admin/court-fees.html

 

So the claim fee might be the same.

 

Frankly I think it's a damned cheek that they have made such mistakes that they should continue with the claim against you which includes incurring the fee which would more usefully be applied to the debt.

 

How much do you think you could pay against the debt right now?

[BankFodder]

Also, you say that you received no notification of this and that they didn't adhere to the pre-action protocol is this correct?

 

In that case it will be possible to argue that had you had prior knowledge and that they had complied with the pre-action protocol that you would have settled down to calculate the debt and you would have started making the payments.

 

I think there are potentially good arguments to dissuade them from continuing or to have the entire claim struck out because they haven't abided by the pre-action protocol.

[Bekki0405]

The cost of the claim are still being charged, but that’s a god point. I was surprised they didn’t send a breakdown on the costs. I don’t mean the bills, but how they got to the final

Figure. I mean it could be ‘think of a number between 1-4000’ and I wouldn’t know!

Is a tomlin a payment plan that you cannot default on?

 

We have a small amount of cash from my husband being made redundant. We are unsure how to distribute this amongst the debts, but could potentially use some to make a one off payment and then pay the rest off by £50 a month, if that would help stops ccj? It’s not enough to pay it all off

[BankFodder]

How much one-off payment?

[Bekki0405]

Up to £1500 if needed.

[Bekki0405]

Hmm could I apply to have it set aside?

[BankFodder]

Well I think that is a very powerful offer.

 

I think the suggestion made by site team member: DX to go for a Tomlin order is a very good one.

 

The only disadvantage of that is that you would still be paying the claim fee which would have been a useful contribution to the debt. However, as DX suggested, it will avoid a CCJ - assuming that this matters to you. You seem to be saying that you have so many debts that I can only imagine that your credit file is destroyed anyway. They CC J would go on your file and last for six years. Maybe this doesn't matter to you and may be you might benefit from being less able to borrow. You have to decide about this.

 

So here are your options. Tell the claimant that you can raise a significant sum to reduce the debt, say, £1000 which will pay immediately and you will then enter into an agreement to pay regular amounts until the debt is discharged – but this would be on the basis that they will agree to a Tomlin order. Explain to the claimant that although you have this money, you have other creditors and if there is not the incentive of avoiding a CC J, then it would be more beneficial to your general position to use the money to pay towards some of your other debts.

 

You could simply agree to the proposal without any conditions but also you might want to reduce the amount that you pay as a lump sum to maybe, £500 and use the rest to deal with some of the other creditors who are probably much more aggressive than this water company.

 

You could tell the water company that there has been a complete failure of the pre-action protocol and given this fact plus the fact that their claim was so inaccurate and unjust because they made mistakes as to your period of occupancy and also attempted to include a substantial portion of the claim even though it was statute barred, that you will be defending particularly on the basis that there was no pre-action protocol and had there been, you would have taken the opportunity at the very least to reduce the debt to a more manageable level and thereby at the very least reduce the costs of the claim. Tell them that on this basis you will be defending and you will be asking the court to strike the claim out and that if this is accepted – which you strongly believe it will, the water company will have to recommence by entering into the pre-action protocol and at the same time you will be taking steps to reduce the debt at a very acceptable rate.

 

I have to say that the way this company is handling this – apart from their stupid mistakes of the beginning, seems to me to be pretty decent and it certainly isn't the vicious and inhumane approach that most debt collection companies and most commercial creditors would take.

 

A lot depends on whether you are bothered about the CC J.

 

Maybe you could join two of the above options together.

 

You could reduce the debt and suggest a Tomlin order and tell them that if they won't accept the Tomlin order then you will defend on the basis of the complete balls-up which they are made of the claim and the lack of pre-action protocol.

[Bekki0405]

The above advice seems a sensible approach.

my credit file is not atrocious, on the south side of acceptable.

 

I’ve been working hard over the last year to improve my credit file, and have reduced debts gradually but effectively.

Husbands credit however is a different matter.

 

The ccj just feels such a backward step and will put a stain on our credit worthiness as a couple.

I will say as a couple, we have a strict agreement that we get no credit whatsoever unless it is a well thought out and mutually agreeable decision.

 

My husband will be looking for alternative accommodation if he doesn’t abide by this.

That is not something I write flippantly!

 

I was hoping that by avoiding a ccj we would already be some way along the repair of our financial situation.

 

I would like to review our mortgage payments and look for a better deal in the future, and a ccj will put a stop to that for 6 years.

 

If I put an offer of negotiating with them forward, I assume an email would be best?

[BankFodder]

I think that a very straight and open approach might be the best.

 

How about something like this

 

thanks for your message of the XXXX date and your proposal for a resolution of this matter.

 

I appreciate that you are taking a very decent and ethical approach to this matter.

 

My problem is, as you can imagine, that my husband and I have a substantial number of debts and we are trying to take control of our finances. Part of our plan is shortly to review our mortgage and hopefully try to negotiate a different mortgage product which will further reduce our outgoings and help us to service our existing debts – and this includes the debt to Southern Water.

 

As part of our attempt to bring our debts under control, we need to take care not to cause any further damage to our credit file. I'm sure that you understand that a County Court judgement as suggested by you would be registered against our credit file and cause further damage for the next six years.

 

I would like to propose that instead of admitting your amended claim as suggested by you, that we enter into a Tomlin agreement under which we would undertake to make agreed monthly payments to clear the arrears and with liberty to you to apply for a judgement in the event that we breach the agreement.

 

We have a sum of money which we intended to distribute to various creditors but if you would agree to the above suggestion and help us to avoid a CCJ, then as a sign of good faith we would be prepared to make an immediate lump sum payment to you of £750 which I'm sure you would agree would produce a very substantial reduction of the debt and also bring forward the date by which our account was cleared.

 

I should point out that the County Court claim which issued against us came as a complete surprise because we have not received any warnings from you and you have not implemented the pre-action protocol which requires you to give us at least 30 days notice of an impending debt action.

 

I think that in view of the fact that the claim which you have issued against us includes a figure for a a period when we did not occupy the property and also a substantial figure which we all agreed is statute barred, if you felt that you would not be prepared to let us settle this matter by means of a Tomlin order, that we would probably have to defend the claim and asked for a strike out on the issue of the failure to follow the pre-action protocol and also point out to the judge the errors in your claim.

 

Of course I appreciate that in the event we did not succeed we would be saddled with an additional hearing fee – but I think that that is a risk that we may be prepared to take.

 

As I say, I appreciate your very decent approach on this and also your offer to correspond with your debt team in order to find a manageable solution. Most creditor companies would not be nearly so helpful. If it was only a matter of sums outstanding to Southern Water we would probably accept your suggestion without question. However, we have a larger problem to deal with and if we are not careful then all creditors – including Southern Water – might find themselves in difficulty being paid at all.

 

[Bekki0405]

One thing I meant to bring up, the litigation emails dates are all over the place. She states she has removed 11th July 2007 to 2nd July 2008, however it’s 2019, at the very least 2018 when the claim was submitted? What reason for not removing up until 2012?

 

I’m worried I’m agreeing to an amount, if I try to negotiate the Tomlin, that is still incorrect.

Her dates at the start are also out, but I’m accepted that as a typo. The figures are more of a concern

[BankFodder]

In that case I think you should send her gentle email pointing out the discrepancies and also telling you what you think might be the relevant period for the purpose of calculation.

 

Tell her that you appreciate her email and her approach and you are considering it but you need to clarify points – then tell her what those points are.

 

See what she says and also do your own calculations and see what you each come to. They are obviously quite receptive to getting it right.

 

Then come back here and tell us what the position seems to be an then maybe negotiate the Tomlin order along the lines I suggested above.

[dx100uk]

get her to send you the actual BILLS for the period of the POC they filed.

then well decide what is/is not applicable.

 

just remember the overriding date here.

 

THEY have 28 days to move the claim forward...

YOU are in NO RUSH to agree to ANYTHING and don't have too unless you are 1000% happy with what they 'propose'

 

the next move is theirs, don't take what someone says on the phone regarding the claim WILL happen

they might not even do anything with it.

 

at present YOU are in the driving seat, NOT them,

you also need to remember the 100's of claim that must have been issued by them thru shumans going back outside the 6yrs..we only have 3? here is it?

someones on a mass fleecing exercise, the way YOU conduct this could benefit MANY people.....

[Bekki0405]

Good point dx, I was almost tempted to admit the claim prior to looking for help.

After all, if SW say I owe it then I must.

 

It’s been an education learning about county court claims and SB’s, not one I relish becoming more savvy about, but nonetheless a very important lesson on questioning everything and really thinking about whether it’s true.

 

I’m going to dig some more, I’m not happy to pay an amount that I don’t have a breakdown for.

Made more complicated by a litany if errors.

 

I’m in no way looking to get out of the debt, but if I can settle this for the smallest amount possible, theres more money to clear other outstanding debts

Edited January 18, 2019 by dx100uk
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[BankFodder]

.... and you should start dealing with those by listing them on this forum straightaway. There is nothing t stop you dealing with everything at broadly the same time. You may well need to send off SAR or CCA requests - so get going now

[Bekki0405]

I’ve written an email the SW litigation which I attach.

Should I ask for the breakdown, pointing out the errors to her in the first instance.

And then later, separately make an offer if and when the figures have been sent and I agree that the charges are correct.

 

I’m a little anxious at how long I/they have.

The claim was filed on 12/1 and received on 14/1.

Does that give them Until 10/2 to decide what to do.

 

Can they go straight back to court and get a judgement against me?

Or do they have to show that they’ve exhausted all avenues.

 

The court seem to be saying that SW will try to sort it informally,

but SW are saying that it will go to a ccj if I admit and if I continue to defend it will go to small claims.

 

I really want to sort this amicably, but I feel there’s a lot of contradictory information flying about

 

Also

 

This is my draft email to send back to SW

 

Thank you for your email on the 14th January and your proposal for a resolution of this matter.

 

I appreciate that you are taking a very decent and ethical approach to this matter.

 

As part of our attempt to bring our debts under control, we need to take care not to cause any further damage to our credit file. I'm sure that you understand that a county court judgement as suggested by you would be registered against our credit file and cause further damage for the next six years.

 

My problem is, as you can imagine, that my husband and I have a substantial number of debts and we are trying to take control of our finances. Part of our plan is shortly to review our mortgage and hopefully try to negotiate a different mortgage product which will further reduce our outgoings and help us to service our existing debts – and this includes the debt to Southern Water.

 

I did not receive the Pre Action Protocol from Southern Water and as a result, had no opportunity to make an offer to pay prior to the claim form arriving from the court. Also, the claim form sets out the particulars of the case, however there is no breakdown of how the particulars are made up, and the dates are inconsistent with my time at the property. In addition to this, there is a large part of the claim with is statute barred, which you have yourself agreed with. However your email does not address the fact that I have not received a breakdown of the amount being claimed, and in fact the dates are extremely confusing, and you are stating that you have removed the charges until 2nd July 2008, should it not be January 2013? I have requested a CPR 31:14 from Shulmans and have yet to receive the requested information.

I would like a complete breakdown of the charges being claimed, so I can consider my position in an informed way. I am currently unable to do so, as the amount requested on the email, has been changed from the original court claim, with no documentation to back up how the new amount has been calculated.

 

—————————————————————————————————————————————

 

I would like to propose that instead of admitting your amended claim as suggested by you, that we enter into a Tomlin agreement under which we would undertake to make agreed monthly payments to clear the arrears and with liberty to you to apply for a judgement in the event that we breach the agreement.

 

We have a sum of money which we intended to distribute to various creditors but if you would agree to the above suggestion and help us to avoid a CCJ, then as a sign of good faith we would be prepared to make an immediate lump sum payment to you of £750 which I'm sure you would agree would produce a very substantial reduction of the debt and also bring forward the date by which our account was cleared.

 

I should point out that the County Court claim which issued against us came as a complete surprise because we have not received any warnings from you and you have not implemented the pre-action protocol which requires you to give us at least 30 days notice of an impending debt action.

 

I think that in view of the fact that the claim which you have issued against us includes a figure for a a period when we did not occupy the property and also a substantial figure which we all agreed is statute barred, if you felt that you would not be prepared to let us settle this matter by means of a Tomlin order, that we would probably have to defend the claim and asked for a strike out on the issue of the failure to follow the pre-action protocol and also point out to the judge the errors in your claim.

 

Of course I appreciate that in the event we did not succeed we would be saddled with an additional hearing fee – but I think that that is a risk that we may be prepared to take.

 

As I say, I appreciate your very decent approach on this and also your offer to correspond with your debt team in order to find a manageable solution. Most creditor companies would not be nearly so helpful. If it was only a matter of sums outstanding to Southern Water we would probably accept your suggestion without question. However, we have a larger problem to deal with and if we are not careful then all creditors – including Southern Water – might find themselves in difficulty being paid at all.

Edited January 18, 2019 by dx100uk
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[BankFodder]

I think that before you send see email which I suggested, you should certainly follow the advice of siteteam member DX and ask them to send you all of the bills. You should explain to them that you appreciate the approach and before accepting what they say you would simply like to double check to confirm the figures and if they will let you have copies of all of the bills you will be able to give them a reply within 14 days.

 

Then you can calculate and see whether you think that they are wrong and let us know and we will advise you as to the next step. I foresee that eventually you will be sending the email which I proposed to you above or a version of it

[dx100uk]

please follow carefully and understand what is written in post 22

 

stop worrying about what they might or might not do.

they HAVE to follow claim protocol.

 

they cant 'just get a CCJ' if you don't bend over,

take 90% of what THEY said can happen to you over the phone and THROW IT OUT THE WINDOW.

its just to scare you!!.

 

simply ask for copies of all the bills that they reference in their POC.

nothing more nothing less ONLY.

 

don't BEG!!