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Summersea

NCP ANPR PCN - Crawley Kingsgate - paid but ticket thrown - NTK out of time away since

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Posted (edited)

Hi,

 

I got slapped with pretty much the same PCN at the same car park.

My wife was driving the car and she did pay the £2.50 after she arrived.

 

However as we only got the PCN 22 days after the day she parked there

the ticket is long gone.

 

The date of the incident was the 6th of December and we got the PCN on the 28th of December.

 

I have seen from the signs posted here that they say you don't need to display the ticket in the car but that you should keep it as a proof (who keeps their tickets?).

 

The PCN claims we breached the 'contract' by parking without payment and as evidence they just show that the car entered and left the car park. That is only evidence that the car parked there, not that it wasn't paid for.

 

As we don't have the ticket anymore we can't tell when the ticket was issued or whether the registration number was entered correctly (always a change of typing it wrong).

 

In my opinion they would need to prove that you didn't pay.

So they would need to show an audit trail of tickets issued during the period and list which tickets that were issued do not match any cars that entered the car park.

If e.g. 1000 cars parked during the day and 1000 tickets were issued they can't really claim that someone did not pay.

 

The Levenshtein distance (how many letters you need to change to go from one string to another, E.g. Hello to Hillo would be a distance of 1 as you have to change one letter) between the reg numbers entered on the ticket machine and the reg numbers of the ANPR system would show straight away if some reg number had a typo.

 

If a type was the cause for this PCN then another question is if the system knows at any time which cars are in the car park, why does the parking ticket machine not reject numbers that are not in the car park?

 

So what is the best way forward.

I've read that you should not appeal.

Why?

 

I fully understand that they will reject the appeal as this is their business model but can't you use the appeal to put them on notice already?

 

I am not a lawyer but I would request the following:

-Proof that the parking charge was not payed

 

-Ask them to reserve the CCTV footage (if they have) of the ticket machine for future use in the court of law as that would show my wife making the payment (making clear that you won't be bullied)

 

-Provide a list of tickets issued during the period which do not match any of the numbers of the ANPR system and their Levenshtein to our registration number.

-Audit trail of the ticket machines.

Are there any gaps in the ticket issued?

 

My wife has her father as a witness that she paid and there she helped an elderly couple at the ticket machine (but we don't know them).

 

So what do you suggest we do?

Wait until they write they are going to court?

 

What would the worst case be,

it goes to court and you have to pay.

How much would that be?

 

I know that that is what they bank on that people are scared of going to court and lose especially now that they won a few (or at least one) cases in court.

 

PCN attached

 

Signs (thanks to User999 for getting all those pictures)

 

One of the signs is saying: "Please ensure you enter the full and correct vehicle registration number of the vehicle you've parked today. Failure to do so may result in the issue of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN)"

Edited by dx100uk
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You've left your name showing on the PCN

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Post reported to Site Team.


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My advice would be dont respond yet. Its ANPR capture and you got the letter 22 days later . Correct?

 

If so, theyre out of time and cant do anything. The letter has to be recieved by you within 14 days from the date of offence. They didnt even issue it until 22 days later.

 

Even if they tried to claim it wasnt ANPR, theyre still not in the relevant time limits for a windscreen ticket.

 

Also, the NTK isnt even compliant.

 

Guaranteed win for you if theyre stupid enough to try anything.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

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attachments removed

please redact suitably

and put them ALL in ONE multipdf please

read upload


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Posted (edited)

Okay here are the attachments again in one PDF.

 

@renegadeimp

Do you have a link to where it says that a PCN from a ANPR system has to be issued within 14 days?

 

The date of the incident was the 6th of December.

The PCN was issued on the 24th of December - after 18 days

and received by us on the 28th of December (probably late because of the bank holidays).

 

 

And what means NTK? Notice to Keeper? Why is it not compliant?

NCP_Crawley_Kingsgate.pdf

Edited by Summersea

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I wouldn't worry at all. NCP have fallen at the first hurdle by sending you the NTK far too late under POFA.

Could you please fill this out and we can then advise you better when to tell them to go and do one-

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket-(1-Viewing)-nbsp

 

Please do not appeal yet as you may reveal that you may have been the driver which is something NCP does not know. And they need to know

that before they can take you to Court.

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Posted (edited)

1 Date of the infringement

06/12/2018

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date]

24/12/2018

 

3 Date received

28/12/2018

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?]

no

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event?

Yes they have pictures of the car entering and leaving the car park but that is not disputed and that does not prove that we did not pay!

 

6 Have you appealed? {y/n?] post up your appeal]

No not yet. Should we?

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

No

7 Who is the parking company?

NCP National Car Parks Ltd, Manchester M61 0RH

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town]

Crawley Kingsgate, Queensway, Kingsgate, Crawley RH10 1EN, Phone: 0345 050 7080

 

Is this what we are talking about?

 

Protection of Freedoms Act 2012

www DOT legislation DOT gov DOT uk /ukpga /2012/ 9 /schedule/ 4/ enactedn (sorry had to split up URL as I am not allowed to post links yet)

§9 -

(4)The notice must be given by—

(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

 

Hi I am not the driver and I would state that in the appeal but I would not mention who the driver was.

Edited by dx100uk
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Totally ignore everything

Do not appeal

 

If/when you get a letter before/of claim from one of the fake/tame paper only solicitors then pop back.


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Hi, why is everyone saying ignore them (even if the advice by the link for ignore says don't just ignore them)? What do I lose or give away by appealing.

If this is really the case that the hole PCN is not valid as it was issued too late would they not stop it right there and then when they see this is not an easy push over?

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Okay here are the attachments again in one PDF.

 

@renegadeimp

Do you have a link to where it says that a PCN from a ANPR system has to be issued within 14 days?

 

The date of the incident was the 6th of December.

The PCN was issued on the 24th of December - after 18 days

and received by us on the 28th of December (probably late because of the bank holidays).

 

 

And what means NTK? Notice to Keeper? Why is it not compliant?

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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Hi, why is everyone saying ignore them (even if the advice by the link for ignore says don't just ignore them)? What do I lose or give away by appealing.

If this is really the case that the hole PCN is not valid as it was issued too late would they not stop it right there and then when they see this is not an easy push over?

 

Hi. This is why we recommend that people read around other threads on this forum. You're probably assuming that you're dealing with reasonable people, but PPCs are there to make money and don't want to indulge in fairness. We'll let you know when it's the right time to write, you can trust the guys here. :)

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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the NTK is outside 14 days

end of problem.

 

now we know that...

we can safely advise IGNORE unless as post 10


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Hi, why is everyone saying ignore them (even if the advice by the link for ignore says don't just ignore them)? What do I lose or give away by appealing.

If this is really the case that the hole PCN is not valid as it was issued too late would they not stop it right there and then when they see this is not an easy push over?

 

If you appeal, you lose everything the pofa 2012 gives you, and you make the PPC's job easy. You do not need to do anything. They havent even complied with basic regulation which i linked above so theyre stuffed.

 

You appeal and name yourself as the driver, then ALL that legislation that is there to protect you.. doesnt apply and theyll chase you full on for the money.

 

Right now, you have an ace up your sleeve which will kill any court claim dead in its tracks if theyre stupid enough to try anything ( they likely wont. They rely on people being uneducated about this so they cough up willingly).

 

Resist the urge to appeal or contact them, as you will make things a lot worse for yourself if you do appeal. Why do their job for them?

 

Have a good read of the legislation and other threads on here.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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I'll add that the PPC WANTS you to appeal, as they know you will lose your protection under the relevant legislation and it becomes much MUCH easier for them to chase you and take you to court.

 

RIght now the NTK you got is nowhere near compliant, they havent acted within relevant legislation or guidelines, and was automated.

 

You save any kind of appeal etc IF you receive , as dx said, a letter of claim or a full court claim. Let them waste their money. They dont care about you one bit. Dont go chasing them or thinking youre doing the morally right thing, as they couldnt care less.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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I am currently thinking of appealing with the following text. What do you think?

 

 

I, XXXXX, am the registered keeper of the vehicle XXXXX would like to appeal Parking Charge Notice ZPXXXXXX.

Date of incident: 06/12/2018

Date of issue: 24/12/2018

Date received: 28/12/2018

 

I am the registered keeper but I was NOT the driver on that particular day. The driver has informed me that he/she has paid the £2.50 after arriving at the car park.

 

The Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges is guided by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4.

 

The applicable section §9 specifies how this notice must be given:

(4)

The notice must be given by—

(a)

handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or

(b)

sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.

(5)

The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.

(6)

A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

 

Here §9 (4) (b) and §9 (5) are the relevant sections. The parking incident was on the 6/12/2018. The notice should have been delivered within 14 days, so it should have been received by me by the 20th of December. However the notice was only issued on the 24th of December and received by me on the 28th.

 

The notice is thereby invalid according to the Protection of Freedoms act 2012, Schedule 4, §6 (1) (b) and §9.

 

 

Please note that §7 and 8 and thereby §6 (1) (a) is not applicable as a notice to the driver according to §7 was never given.

 

You thereby have no rights under §4 to claim any unpaid parking charges!

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Dont appeal. Please take the advice you came here for, and read other threads. Resist the temptation as it is going to make things much harder for you down the road. You dont know who the driver was, you dont know where they live, you dont know if theyre male or female. Thats why you need to NOT appeal, no matter if it sounds like the right thing to do.

 

In your appeal you pretty much state you do know the driver and you have been in constant communication with them.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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Thinking of adding this:

 

The NCP has not met the keeper liability requirements and therefore keeper liability does not apply. The NCP can therefore only pursue the driver. As the keeper of the vehicle, I decline, as is my right, to provide the name of the driver(s) at the time. As the parking company have neither named the driver(s) nor provided any evidence as to who the driver(s) were I submit I am not liable to any charge.

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General opinion is that this isn't the time to write, Summersea. Why are you so determined to plough ahead at this stage?

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Summer sea.. you do realise theres absolutely nothing they can do to you right? UNLESS you appeal?

 

Youve come here for advice from people who are very experienced with matters like this. Please take that advice, otherwise if you fall foul of it, its going to be much harder for you to get out of.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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what part of post 14 do you not understand please?

 

dx


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

MAKES A THREAD TWICE AS LONG TO SCROLL THROUGH!

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I don't want to waste any more time than necessary. From reading other websites I have the feeling that my appeal is likely to succeed at least at the POPLA stage. If you can show right from the start that their claim is invalid it will be difficult for them to proceed.

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Summer sea.. you do realise theres absolutely nothing they can do to you right? UNLESS you appeal?

 

Youve come here for advice from people who are very experienced with matters like this. Please take that advice, otherwise if you fall foul of it, its going to be much harder for you to get out of.

 

Because no one explains why appeal is bad! Why can they do something when I appeal but not when I don't? So please explain why it is bad to appeal especially when the claim is invalid!

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Youre not wasting any time. Youre under the impression they will do something if you dont appeal in their silly timeframes. They wont. They cant.

 

Dont give them a heads up at all. If you really want to appeal to popla for some reason, just make up a reason to the PPC. Dont give them any heads up that you know theyre stuffed. Just say aliens had landed and you went to take a look. Seriously.

 

PPC's are not above changing things when they know theyve been rumbled. Especially as theres no reason at all for you to appeal in their silly timeframes ( timeframes they state that conveniently mean you lose your POFA protections. Thats why they try and have you appeal before the POFA timeframes are up. Or even start)


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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