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sengo

Change of shift and pay

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Hello All , I have a an issue I was hoping you can advise me on ,I work in security and have been on same site for over 15 years and we have 6 security personnel and for the last 7 years I have been working nights.

I am the night Supervisor and my shift pattern was 6 nights on and 3 nights off rolling roster and my opposite did 6 days on and 3 days off rolling roster , the other guards did a 3days/3nights and the 3 off.

On March 2018 the building management changed and so did the security company and we got a "security manager" as well.

The new building manager wanted a small change which did not really affect me ,which was that they wanted a permanant front of house guard monday to friday and the rest they did not care about.

So we changed to suit them , the day supervisor did monday to friday days ,I changed to a thursday to monday 5 night shifts so no weekends as i wanted to keep my nights.

Fast forward to today and the security manager wants to change the shift patterns for me ,he wants me to go an a rolling roster of days and nights which i do not want to do.

Some pertinent info is that I actually never signed the contract the new company made for us and I think if he made me change shifts I would lose my supervisor position and associated pay.

Also since the new security manager came 3 of the old guards have left and only 2 of us old guards remain , he has got his own people in now.

My old contract from old company ,I have actually lost it so no idea what it states to be honest.

I am not in any union.what are my options here ?

 

PS I have not disclosed this to the company but one of the reasons I work nights is my son has kidney failure and is on the transplant list and I take him to hospital often and look after during the day.

Thanks in advance for advice.

 

Regards,

 

Sengo

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Hello

 

if you have worked the new arrangement without protest, it doesn't really matter if you signed or not, you will be deemed to have accepted it.

 

I think you are going to be a bit stuck with no copy contract.

 

Have you considered requesting flexible working due to your caring responsibilites? Do you think the new boss is "ok" and might help with that?


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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The new arrangement was changing from 6 nights on and 3 days off too 5 nights on and 2 days off ,this is totally different as in change my shift to days and nights ,probably a 5 days on 2 days off and then 5 nights on and 3 days off.

 

Edit - I can probaby get a contract from the old company if I really needed to.

Edited by sengo
added info

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The problem is that, having agreed to one change silently, you canlt really then say "and now I want my old hours back"

 

I think its worth getting a copy of the contract. Were you TUPEd over?

 

They can still change your terms with notice though...

 

It is also worth just having a proper chat with the boss, and not assuming the worst.


Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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yeah , we was Tuped over.

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I'm afraid that your old contract and the TUPE are now irrelevant. You agreed to the change by not objecting to it (and if you are honest, you did agree because you thought it had no impact on you so it was fine - that's what you've said), so that change is over and done with. That is now your terms of employment.

 

The question then only becomes can they impose this new change if you disagree with it - and you will have to disagree with it if that is what you want to do. You can't just go along with it and complain later.

 

If you currently have nothing in writing, then it is likely - but not guaranteed - that toy can argue that your current hours are contractual and cannot be changed without your agreement. BUT that only gets you to the fact that if the emptier wants this change anyway, they have two options. Make you redundant - and possibly claim this change as a suitable alternative, so you take the job or possibly face no redundancy pay and needing to go to a tribunal to get it if a tribunal agree with you. Or impose the change, which consists of serving you notice and them offering you the new contractual conditions which you either accept before the end of your notice period or you end up Bening treated as resigned, at which point you must then argue that is unfair dismissal at a tribunal. That means that either way you have no job at all, and you must enter the lottery of whether an employment tribunal considers you acted reasonably or not.

 

You might have a better chance in that lottery - but it's only a might - if you argue that you cannot change your hours now because of your caring responsibilities for a disabled person. It's not a magic bullet, but it may open up some additional pursues to get your own way. But you do have to tell the employer, and that isn't an option. It isn't going to be viewed as in your favor if you then produce that as an argument at a later stage - it's now or never.

 

So yes, I think an honest and full disclosure chat with the boss is your best approach now. See if the position is fixed. If it is, then that changes the whole situation and the question becomes how far are you prepared to go to to not have this change - does it include losing your job? Any advice would then have to be based on the strategy that gets you the least bad outcome.

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Thanks , will see how it goes and report back !

 

I'm afraid that your old contract and the TUPE are now irrelevant. You agreed to the change by not objecting to it (and if you are honest, you did agree because you thought it had no impact on you so it was fine - that's what you've said), so that change is over and done with. That is now your terms of employment.

 

The question then only becomes can they impose this new change if you disagree with it - and you will have to disagree with it if that is what you want to do. You can't just go along with it and complain later.

 

If you currently have nothing in writing, then it is likely - but not guaranteed - that toy can argue that your current hours are contractual and cannot be changed without your agreement. BUT that only gets you to the fact that if the emptier wants this change anyway, they have two options. Make you redundant - and possibly claim this change as a suitable alternative, so you take the job or possibly face no redundancy pay and needing to go to a tribunal to get it if a tribunal agree with you. Or impose the change, which consists of serving you notice and them offering you the new contractual conditions which you either accept before the end of your notice period or you end up Bening treated as resigned, at which point you must then argue that is unfair dismissal at a tribunal. That means that either way you have no job at all, and you must enter the lottery of whether an employment tribunal considers you acted reasonably or not.

 

You might have a better chance in that lottery - but it's only a might - if you argue that you cannot change your hours now because of your caring responsibilities for a disabled person. It's not a magic bullet, but it may open up some additional pursues to get your own way. But you do have to tell the employer, and that isn't an option. It isn't going to be viewed as in your favor if you then produce that as an argument at a later stage - it's now or never.

 

So yes, I think an honest and full disclosure chat with the boss is your best approach now. See if the position is fixed. If it is, then that changes the whole situation and the question becomes how far are you prepared to go to to not have this change - does it include losing your job? Any advice would then have to be based on the strategy that gets you the least bad outcome.

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You want a particular shift pattern because of your son, then just say so

 

Most people are good people and they will agree

 

In Law, there is something called Associative Discrimination, however there is no need to go down that route

 

Speak to your manager and if, in the most unlikely scenario, he refused then you could take it higher (informally)

 

My honest opinion is that he would accept it

 

By the way, you now have a contract

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Things are in flux now and if he wants to change my shift ,others have to change as well and I do not think this will happen... but who knows.I will update if anything changes ,thanks.

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Please ignore the totally irrelevant advice on associative discrimination. Some advisors advisers are better than others. Pick carefully what you listen to. In order to be associative discrimination the employer would need to know about your disabled child (they don't because you have already said you haven't ever told them) and they would have to be taking this action because of your association with a disabled person.

 

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a free forum that provides reliable legal advice. That's what a union or a lawyer are for. If you are forced to rely on advice from strangers on the internet then please, OP, be very, very careful whose advice you follow. Because some people appear not to care whether you get dismissed or not when following their ridiculous advice.

 

There is no need to go down the route of associative dissociation because it is entirely irrelevant and not applicable. No other reason.

 

If your employer is not amenable to a discussion, which, as you had already been told, they may be, then come back here and explain what they have said and why they refuse. Do not simply take it higher, and do not do that informally at all. That advice could be entirely counterproductive at best, and dangerous at worst.

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You must tell your employer about your son and should have done so from the start.

This would give you a bit of leeway if your child needs more attentive care at one point, for example after the transplant if he hasn't had it yet.

I fully agree with sangie, be wary of people on forums giving advice which may be detrimental to you and favour your employer.

There are people behind a screen claiming to be union activists/reps/high rank officials but on every single thread they side with the employer.

So be very careful.

My two pennies apart from letting your employer know about your child and that you are his main carer:

Once they know about your family situation they are obliged to have a duty of care towards you as an individual.

They can't just say for example: we're changing the rosta and if you can't do the new shifts that's the door.

They would need to try and accommodate your needs to the business needs, then and only then, if this is not possible they could start the process of redundancy, redeployment, relocation etc.

So, dondada is correct about the associative discrimination.

For example if they gave your shifts to another person who has just arrived, knowing that you wouldn't be able to do mornings, that would most likely be associative discrimination as well as constructive dismissal if you had to resign.

Anyhow, report your situation to hr and speak to your manager, most likely they will just help you out.

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No they are not obliged to give you anything - disabled child or not. They must consider reasonable adjustments. If they consider the request unreasonable they can refuse it. Dondada and others here are keen to blame people for siding with employers. The law sides with employers. Forget that at your peril. The people advising you that "you'll be ok" and that your have legal grounds to fight this cannot possibly know that because there is not sufficient information to make any such claim.

 

I'm afraid that this thread has , like others, become a means for those who want to wage class war and/ or claim legal knowledge they don't have (based on circumstances they have little information about) to play with posters future employment at no risk to themselves.

 

OP, this thread is going to give you awful advice now. You won't be able to pick thorough what is in your best interests and what isn't. I strongly advise getting legal advice if you need to dispute the change with your employers. I do not think you should place your income and job in the hands of people who are happy for you to fight battles they won't be around for. Which doesn't mean that tyou wouldn't perhaps have a case. It does mean that reliable legal advice isn't available here - and anyone telling you that you would have cases of associative discrimination and constructive dismissal without any evidence to support such a claim are playing with your future in a way that I am totally uncomfortable with. If you are going to risk your job, get proper advice. Not on a free advice forum, and not at ACAS.

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The employer is bound by law to a duty of care as well as making reasonable adjustments for carers of vulnerable people.

I might be unreasonable but to me a child on a transplant list is vulnerable.

Siding with the employer all the time does not achieve anything and if all unions did that we would still be working 80 hours a week with unpaid leave, sickness and breaks.

Op, I make it clear, the first, second and third approach must be a soft one.

You should let hr know officially in written form about your child and that you are his carer.

Then you approach your manager, tell him the same thing and ask if you can do the shifts that suit you.

Most likely he will help you out, but if he doesn't than you need to start being firmer in your actions, a grievance would be your first port of call.

In many companies handbook, the policy about change of shift is that if a grievance is raised the shifts remain the same until all is done and dusted, that includes appeals.

If you are going to resign because you can't do the new shifts, why go without a fight.

Anyhow, if you have home insurance you could have free legal advice which includes employment matters, check it out.

Also, there are many organisations supporting carers, even some councils have dedicated teams.

Contact them and most likely they will arrange a legal adviser to have a chat with you.

In a case a few years ago, a local mp involved in a carer's charity contacted some fools at a large firm where a friend worked and was being mugged off.

The very next day they approved his permanent late shifts which he's still doing.

Given all of this, if keeping you on nights would be detrimental to the business (for real I mean), then the employer would have better reasons to push you about.

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