Abbey Life - Past Business Review Annuity Questionnaire

[Primrose13]

Hello HB - I hope you are well and all your fellow advisers.   Here I am again - with a positive update.

 

On 10th May 2019 - we had a phone call to discuss our medical replies on their forms.  I was surprised given our history they did not want to get reports from our GP's.  They took our word for what was serious illness. We told her on the phone, when she wanted to go over a few of our answers,  that we were happy for them contact both our GP's and Hospital if necessary.  She said they probably wouldn't as in their experience it can take some time to get the reports.

 

On 25th June 2019 - I decided to write an just ask for an update.  I thought if they were contacting GP's - I could recall them saying you had a certain length of time to look at report.

 

Today 5th July 2019 - we have received a reply!!  I take it that this response is all in order and can only accept that what is calculated is correct.  (looking at page 2 info I guess it is) Obviously we have no idea what it would have been if we had left Abbey Life and gone to an independent company for our annuities.

 

All we know the money is very welcome.  I have attached copies of the letter we received today without identifying ourselves.

 

Looking forward to hearing from you after all the support you have given me.

 

 

 

[honeybee13]

Hi Primrose. This is very promising, well done you.

 

Would it be possible to give this a little bit longer so I can ask other people on the team if it's right to take the first offer please?

 

My other thought unless you tell me otherwise is that you don't have a copy of Abbey's calculations along with the letter.

 

HB

[Primrose13]

Thank you HB.

 

I would appreciate your thoughts as I said in my post - ' I take it that this response is all in order and can only accept that what is calculated is correct'.   

 

No - we had nothing else accept what I have posted - 2 pages above.  On page 2 they say how they have calculated but I have no idea what information they entered to arrive at the calculation.

 

Do you think that is why they say the cheque will be posted 14 days from the date of the letter?  

Edited July 5, 2019 by Primrose13

[Primrose13]

Hello - here I am again and would appreciate your thoughts.  I am providing a copy of what I wrote to Abbey Life and their reply received today.

 

UPDATE

 

First of all here is a copy of what i wrote to them on 30 July 2019 -

 

Thank you - I am now in receipt of the cheque. 

 

We should be grateful if you would send us details of how the calculations for the compensation were done, including the information that was input into the system.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

TODAY 

 

Just received this.  I feel we need to respond to this letter and remind them we were also requesting the information that was input into the system by Abbey Life.  In other words they suggest referring to the FCA website and that will not provide us with the input they themselves entered.

 

 

 

[honeybee13]

Hi Primrose.

 

That's not very helpful, is it? You don't even know if they've input the right information.

 

I haven't found the calculator on the FCA website yet, but I think it might be worth ringing them to say that you've asked Abbey for details of their calculations and just been referred to the FCA website without a link to the right page.

 

Let's see what they say first.

 

HB

[Primrose13]

OK - will do - have to go out this morning and will try FCA this afternoon.  Just to clarify -

 

I will say to FCA - Abbey Life have advised me to refer to them.  I would like assistance on how to find Thermatic Review 16/7. ( I will explain I have asked Abbey what they have input to arrive at their calculations.)

 

Thank you.

[honeybee13]

It would be worth asking if you can speak to someone who deals with the thematic reviews if it's possible. 

 

HB

[Primrose13]

Hello

 

I have just spoken to them and very helpful. 

 

1. She is sending me via email the information they have on the Thematic Review 16/7.  

2. Gave me a different phone number to phone Phoenix than the one they have on the letter.

3. Gave me a Case Ref: Number for our call.

 

So will wait for her email and take it from there before I phone Pheonix because just maybe it will give me a 'feel' for what is involved to make this calculation.

 

Watch this space!!  I do hope it is not 100's of pages !!!

 

 

 

[Primrose13]

Hello

 

They sent the wrong one first of all as I tried to read through it - I thought this looks like the initial process.  Anyway she has sent out the correct with apologies. https://www.fca.org.uk/publication/thematic-reviews/tr16-7.pdf

 

I am putting it here in case anyone else needed it for ref.  However, trying to scan through it see

 

Pages 19 & 20. 

 

See 3.26 - I quote estimated plausible range of lost annuity income to an average customer being between £120 - £240 p.a. Which doesn't seem very much does it?

 

See 3.27 ....

 

Anyway I have emailed them again because my question was not answered i.e. if any of their department know if they are obliged to tell me what info they put into the FCA mandated calculator? 

 

Now - I am wondering if this IS a real 'calculator'  or is it if they tick boxes for 'ill health' - then - just calculate on the above figures.  In other words it is NOT putting in your precise medical conditions into a 'calculator'. 

 

I hope I have explained it OK so that you can understand what I am trying to say.

 

Thank you again.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Primrose13

[honeybee13]

Hi Primrose.

 

I'm a bit confused about your post #108, was that conversation with the FCA or Phoenix/Abbey Life please?

 

HB

[Primrose13]

Sorry - I have only communicated with FCA so far.  (See my post 106)    I did say FCA gave me a different phone number for Phoenix for 'when' I call them - which I have not done yet - that may have confused you.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Primrose13

[honeybee13]

Thank you for the clarification, that makes sense now.

 

Ref your point on 3.26, a while ago I think I posted a case study that sounded similar to yours that estimated how much annuity had been lost. That might guide you.

 

I have to say that I have no experience of actuarial calculations and was useless at maths at school, but I hope we can work through this.

 

HB

[Primrose13]

Thank you HB - please don't spoil your long weekend to get back to me.  As we know we have a cashed cheque which is a very good and thanks to your guidance you helped make it happen. 

 

As I said to the helpful person at the FCA - I just wondered when they have ALL our medical history does having varying levels (if that is the correct word) does it really make any difference?  In other words if you are a smoker and overweight you would be treated the same if you have heart trouble and cancer.

 

Perhaps it means once you pass the first test - the rest is irrelevant and the calculator works out figures based on the type and amount of pension you were paying before retirement.  In other words it does not need to know about your specific health issues.

[Primrose13]

When you get time do you think you may be able to local the link to the post you mention -

 

Ref your point on 3.26, a while ago I think I posted a case study that sounded similar to yours that estimated how much annuity had been lost. That might guide you.

 

Thank you 

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

I can't see the link atm, I think it could have been this one from the Telegraph, it's about the same fund size.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/pensions-retirement/annuities/200000-pensioners-line-payouts-short-changed-annuities/

 

HB

[Primrose13]

Thank you HB

 

I have only just emailed FCA again, as I now have a link to a specific person, and I said -

 

'What I cannot seem to establish K... is Abbey Life tell me the calculation for the compensation due to you was done using an FCA mandated calculator.–

1. Does this calculator only want figures or facts?  i.e. would you put in say ‘years’ or do you put in ‘diagnosis’ to enable a true calculation to work.
2. For example would a smoker be treated just the same as someone who already has a diagnosis of an aggressive form of cancer?

I look forward to hearing from you and hopefully someone in your department just may know the answer.'

 

Now looking at your helpful link from Telegraph and I quote -

 

Annuity rates can be boosted for a range of conditions from high blood pressure, which may result in a 2 per cent lift to more serious illnesses such as cancer or strokes which can add 40 or even 50 per cent to the value of payments.

 

So HB it is interesting that we do not get provided with the actual 'evidence' from Abbey Life/Phoenix when we have to provide written information setting out facts to them.

 

Thank you again.

 

[honeybee13]

No problem, I'm sure you'll let us know how it goes.

 

HB

[Primrose13]

Just received this reply from FCA -

 

Thank-you for your email, I have discussed this matter with other colleagues in my department.

The FCA requested that firms review past sales practices where consumers have taken a standard annuity as opposed to an enhanced annuity rate.

In terms of the calculation it is going to vary amongst different insurers due to their own underwriters having different risk appetites when making an assessment. I.e. They may offer different amounts of annuity for different medical conditions.

With regards to an “FCA mandated calculator,” I’ve been unable to find a rule that requires a firm to share this with a consumer. You may wish to speak to Phoenix Life Limited to confirm whether they are able to share any of the information on their calculations with you.

If you need to speak to us regarding this matter please use the following reference number xxxx

 

So HB - need to give this some thought.  In some way back to square one i.e. Phoenix letter - refereed to in post 104 above. 

[ericsbrother]

you could ask the FCA for a list fo the different methods they mandate for calculating things. that wont identify the exact formula but will show the general logic to it all and put Abbey in a spot should you the use all of the FCA formulae to check the sum Abbey arrived at from the original sum to be turned into an annuity.

It is like doing s reverse calculation on a checksum so without examples will be impossible to even start to work out for yourself.

 

The other point is whatever you get is a bonus but would it be the same as putting the money into another company's scheme?

[Primrose13]

Thank you I need to give this some thought.  At moment family issues have arisen and I need to get back to this ASAP. 

[honeybee13]

Thread open.

[Primrose13]

Well - I didn't contact Phoenix again to pursue “FCA mandated calculator,”  (see my post 104 & 118)  Family illness and coping with a bereavement have only just settled down.

 

Today -

(a) I don't know if I feel mentally able to pick this up again with Phoenix or even try what 'ericsbrother' brother thought.

(b) If 'self isolation' though this Virus started to create 'spare time' not sure if I could pick this up again after this period of time as the case would be closed I guess?

 

If anyone else finds themselves in a similar position, the help here enabled us to 'fight' and it wasn't easy.  BUT - our reward was a sum of money that we wouldn't have got otherwise.  For that I am very grateful and we didn't go out and spend it - it is nice to know we have it for the 'rainy day'.   (We made a small contribution to the Consumer Action Group as without them - I couldn't have dealt with it.)

 

I don't think I could be of any help but if someone found themselves in the same position as we found ourselves in and thought I might be able to give any information please do not hesitate to contact me.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Primrose13

[honeybee13]

It's best to keep advice to the public forum, Primrose, rather than have people contact you privately. People can start their own threads and have advice from everyone on the forum.

 

HB

[Primrose13]

Woops - I have not started the day off well today on this forum - I am so sorry.

 

First - I didn't mean that anyone could contact me direct!!!    I meant on this thread!!!   

 

Second - I mention 'self isolation' though this Corona Virus - we do not have it - it is just the precautions we are taking because of our age and underlying health issues i.e. we are not going out unless we have to and our 'children' are not visiting unless we needed help.  

Edited March 14, 2020 by Primrose13

[honeybee13]

It's fine, Primrose. It was more for any newbies that might see your thread and not understand site rules. 

 

HB