Do I have to make payments on a voluntary charge - HFC cc debt

[AndyOrch]

Thanks....

 

 

So if you look at the CH1 at point 8 it refers to payment arrangements and as stated you may enter into a payment schedule as may be agreed...but as it stands the charge is purley there to secure the debt.

 

It may be worthwhile doing a DSAR request to get all the data with regards to the CCJ  and if in fact it was set a side.

It may also be worthwhile actually considering a payment plan (an affordable manageable amount ) to keep them at bay as it is possible that they could go for an order of sale should they become impatient.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[blue_eyes777]

OK - I will do the DSAR. Thank you.

 

So even if HFC have sold the debt to Cabot, Cabot can still make me sell - even if it is not their name on the deed?

 

If the DSAR shows judgement was not entered or it was indeed set aside if entered, does this put me in a better position? I have offered them £20 pm at the moment.

[AndyOrch]

Marlin Europe are now Mortimers clients in which the letters refers to.Its quiet easily changed on the register to the new legal owners of the debt.

 

Couple of further questions for clarity .....

 

Has the main mortgage been cleared now or are you still paying ?

Is there any equity in the property if there is still an outstanding mortgage ?

Have you never made any payments to this debt since the VC was placed ?

If not and there is no judgment in place the debt could possibly be statute barred now without a judgment.

[blue_eyes777]

11 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

Marlin Europe are now Mortimers clients in which the letters refers to.Its quiet easily changed on the register to the new legal owners of the debt.

 

Couple of further questions for clarity .....

 

Has the main mortgage been cleared now or are you still paying ?

Still paying the mortgage 

11 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

Is there any equity in the property if there is still an outstanding mortgage ?

Yes

11 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

Have you never made any payments to this debt since the VC was placed ?

No

11 minutes ago, Andyorch said:

If not and there is no judgment in place the debt could possibly be statute barred now without a judgment.

Did I acknowledge the debt by offering a payment of £20?

[AndyOrch]

No...but hold off until you get all the information on this possible CCJ and set a side

[dx100uk]

what do you mean you think there was a CCJ that got set aside in favour of a VCO?

this thread dates back to 2009

there no mention of anything before about a CCJ.

have you any details of it still

like who was the claimant?

its rare for HFC to do court anyway

but as the VCO is in their name they must have done.??

 

can you go onto the .gov.uk land registry site and get the exact wording please.

 

edit:sorry this post took 1 hours to show

ignore

[AndyOrch]

You dont need a Judgment to agree a  voluntary charge.

 

We already have the exact wording ..see attachment

[blue_eyes777]

I thought that a debt could not be statute barred if there is a charge? 

[AndyOrch]

Only if there is a CCJ...hence the DSAR to see if any CCJ was issued and or set a side.

 

Charging Orders have no connection to statute of limitations.

[blue_eyes777]

I have received my SARS from Weightmans,  Cabot, HFC and MC. 

 

So presumably the information MUST be in there somewhere. 

[AndyOrch]

  Have a look  

[blue_eyes777]

I did go through the Weightmans to check but it was not 100% clear as they said they had a CCJ but then they said it would be removed upon signing a VCO. However, I could not find any communication from a county court to prove a  CCJ had been entered. 

 

I will upload the relevant documents later. 

 

I should like to offer my heart felt thanks for everybody's kind , swift help. 

Edited April 3, 2019 by blue_eyes777

[AndyOrch]

And no point checking credit registers or the CCJ Trust Files as its over 6 years and would have vanished.

[blue_eyes777]

OK - I've been through Weightmans and will go through the others but as far as I can see, they said that judgement was entered in June 2007 (but nothing from the court) but I have attached a letter saying they would set it aside should I sign the VCO.

 

Since I did, the judgement must have been set aside.

Does this change anything?

judgement set aside.pdf

[AndyOrch]

Very much so....at the set a side date....the clock started to tick again on the debt with regards to statute of limitations...so the debt that the VC is secured against is now statute barred.

 

Now to the VC ..not quite as simple ..

 

Once a Charging Order is granted, a record of this will be held at HM Land Registry for 12 years, although this can be removed at the discretion of the creditor once the order has been settled in full. 

 

An equitable charge is not extinguished after expiry of the limitation period in s. 20(1) of the Limitation Act 1980. Section 17 of that Act has no application,

 

https://www.mortgagefinancegazette.com/features/clarity-on-charging-orders-07-01-2009/

 

 HFC Bank Limited was liquidated  28 Feb 2013 

http://www.hfcbank.co.uk/

 

So the copy of the CH1 you uploaded was provided by Weightmans.....you need to go Direct to the LR and request a copy of your deeds and check the precise wording of the charge and also if they submitted form AP1 with their CH1.

 

Andy

 

 

[blue_eyes777]

Very very interesting indeed. Thanks again for the detailed information.

 

I downloaded a copy of the title register yesterday from this link: https://eservices.landregistry.gov.uk/eservices/FindAProperty/view/QuickEnquiryInit.do?_ga=2.168944801.1247026297.1554289800-1499767881.1549007574

 

from where I copied over the charge information.

So do I need to fill in the deeds request form from this link?:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/official-copies-of-documents-registration-oc2

 

 

and "and also if they submitted form AP1 with their CH1."

 

Where could I find out this please?

 

At the risk of sounding repetitive, as you know, I made them an offer via email of £20 a month a couple of weeks ago - do you not think that I have acknowledged the debt here or is that irrelevant as as you say, the debt is statute barred now?

 

[blue_eyes777]

I will do everything you suggest. 

 

If the debt is statute barred as you say, does this mean that MC cannot go through the courts to force a sale? 

[AndyOrch]

Thats why I asked you to get the latest wording from the lR ...how its worded on your deeds.....the CH1 is only the form used to enter it.

[blue_eyes777]

I already have the title register so presumably I have to send off from the deeds here :

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/official-copies-of-documents-registration-oc2

 

Is this correct? 

 

Here is a screen shot of the latest wording. 

[dx100uk]

yes this is the same issue cruz had

send the form off.

[blue_eyes777]

Doing it now. Thank you. 

[dx100uk]

it could be the key here.

 

dx

 

[blue_eyes777]

Here it is:

 

To save time, I procured the document from here:

https://landregistry-deeds.co.uk/land-registry-oc2/ which was more expensive but wanted to get the document ASAP.

I asked if there was more but this was the reply that I received from them:

"

Yes this is the entire charge document that is filed with the Land Registry.

Form FR1 is not applicable – it is only used when registering a property for the first time.

 

Form AP1 is the application form that accompanies any other application to the Land Registry, it merely specifies the fee paid and the applicants details – it is not itself a legal document and contains no provisions relating to the charge.

An AP1 is not filed as it is purely an administrative form, only the charge itself is filed."

 

So do you think there is more?

Do I wait for the deed pack from LR to come back?

I filled in form OC2 by the way.

Official Copy (Charge) 17.08.2007 - CAG.pdf

[AndyOrch]

Well as stated its hard to remove the Charge unless the claimant agrees to which they wont.....but they are probably not aware that they shot themselves in the foot by setting a side the judgment and relying on the charge to secure the debt.There is no judgment...the debt is statute barred now....as the set a side stated the clock ticking again with regards to limitation.

 

So where do we go well if you dont intend moving forget it...if you do ever move contest the charge for the reasons stated......having no Judgment anchored to the Charge is tantamount to having a car with no engine. 

 

They have to prove the debt to collect on the charge.

 

Andy

[blue_eyes777]

On 03/04/2019 at 22:30, Andyorch said:

Once a Charging Order is granted, a record of this will be held at HM Land Registry for 12 years

OK - so I do not need to pay anything back as per their demands.

Should I write them a statute barred notice if they start to demand it or perhaps threaten me with court? Presumably they can't take me to court now or force the sale if the debt is statute barred?

 

Just now, blue_eyes777 said:

OK - so I do not need to pay anything back as per their demands then at this time?

Should I write them a statute barred notice if they start to demand it or perhaps threaten me with court?

Presumably they can't take me to court now or force the sale if the debt is statute barred?