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Euro Parking Services - NTD Ashted Lock, Dartmouth Middleway, Birmingham, B7 4AZ

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Opening another thread, as this is a different situation than the original

 

For a windscreen ticket (Notice To Driver) please answer the following questions....

1 The date of infringement? 04/12/2018

 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] N

 

have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days]: N

 

5 Who is the parking company? Euro Parking Services

 

6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? Ashted Lock, Dartmouth Middleway, Birmingham, B7 4AZ

 

 

 

Other info

 

New job, so - keep forgetting to display parking permit (never had to before! - and it's unwieldy enough that leaving it on the dash/in the windscreen is annoying enough to distract me whilst driving).

 

Went to lunch - found I'd got a ticket attached to windscreen. My colleague, also walking to his car, found some paper on the floor, which turned out to be another ticket issued to me for another location!! (10 or so minutes earlier!)

 

I've attached (redacted) scans of both tickets. Looking at their serial numbers, they're sequential - so issued straight after another :( I'll be expecting a letter about them both, I guess.

 

 

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Not quite redacted enough as you have left on the make and type of car.

No mention of POF A so be careful not to reveal who was driving.

Interesting that they have not updated their adherence to GDPR by citing the Data

Protection Act 1988.

So you were trespassing which is nothing to do with Euro Parking.

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There are lots of my make and type of car... is that specifically identifiable given I've shown pictures of the car in another thread ? :p

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Ok lets consider the logistics of the patrol person getting from one place to another and miraculously issuing you 2 tickets in both places.

 

As already mentioned on another thread, the detail of the loaction for the science park is flawed as there is no single location of that name and if you consider theoverall area covered by that title then EPS dont have a monopoly and the various places will not be a contiguous block.

 

Now let us consider the othr place, the YMCA. It wil be rather difficult to persuade a court that a person parking their car at work at say 9am and not putting his permit on display suddenly decided to move his car elsewhere to attact a ticket and then back to where they work just to get another one with the purpose of making the ECP attendant look a prat. The driver may have moved the vehicle but the most likely explanation is the attendant is issuing multiple tickets for the same single parking event and possibly getting things wrong but doesnt care because it keeps him in a job and his company dont really give a stuff if some poor sod is harassed unfairly.

 

so lets kill 2 birds with one stone and address both of these by the argument that the parking co have at this stage failed to indicate where exactly the event took place and you do nothing until you get the NTK for the ticket(s) and see if they do better on the NTK. If they dont then they have failed to follow the protocols of the POFA and arent entitled to ask anyone to pay up, let alone claim keeper liability. Because they have not started off well I would bet they get other things wrong as well so dont be tempted to respond yet.

 

Mentioned by others is the other problem for them, permit only is basically a prohibition for others and not an offer of terms. If they wanted to offer terms the sign would say permit holders may park as defined in your contract, all others may park for £100 and then specify how this money may be paid on the sign.

 

so basically wait until you get the NTK and come back so we can see that/them. In the meanwhile more detail on exactly where your vehicle was would be helpful so the argument about proper indentification of the land and thus the potential for them getting that wrong can be fomented

Edited by honeybee13
Paras

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My vehicle was parked where this green astra is on Google Maps (Bay 18)

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4872561,-1.8842944,3a,60y,85.96h,76.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLQRGqmy5pWwuJYbZbJW8oA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Which is addressed as "Ashtead Lock" on Google Maps, and "Ashted Lock" on the street sign

 

Signage at entrance

Full signage is in the other thread (Post #13)

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You didn't redact your documents correctly. You need to save as JPG's, use PAINT to edit them and then convert back to PDF. I can see your full reg and everything else.

 

Entrance sign says "Pre-authorised vehicles and permit holders only", Were you pre-authorised to park there despite not having a permit?

 

Signage is terrible there, one of their signs is about 1 foot off the ground in a bush.

Edited by dx100uk
merge

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so the sign at the entrance doesnt offer a contract for you to consider so they cat claim a bean for breaching something that doesnt exist.

Typical of these companies, they are too thick to understand the meaing of the signs they employed someone to write for them.n

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Yet another ticket today Will scan up later if needed

 

Just noticed that for all these tickets, the observation period is less than 10 minutes (one only by a few seconds).

 

Could it be put to case that there isn't sufficient evidence that I had time to park, get out of car, read signs and "agree" to the "offer" - amongst the other things that could be a case here.

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a secondary point but yes, ther is a thing called " de minimis" and the parking co has to allow at least 10 minutes grace period

TBH there is no point arguing this with the parking co, let them waste their time and money and then clobber them when they emply a useless lawyer to try and scare you into paying and then give it to them with both barrels.

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Oh, I don't plan to argue with them - I'm just noticing more and more "ammo" for our shotgun :)

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Received 2x NTK today. Both are for ones where there was a NTD attached to windscreen - although one wasn't reported on here (I have the original tickets if they're needed)

 

Seems both of them were sent at the same time. Curious to see that they've mentioned a NTD on the front of the page, but also a Notice to Hirer (????) on the reverse.

 

Sorry about the quality - files compressed so I could upload - let me know if you need the uncompressed versions and how best to share

NTK-20181204-redacted-compressed.pdf

NTK-20181210-redacted-compressed.pdf

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they just couldnt be bothered to get someone to write them a separate letter.

Now have they still made the error with the places the vehicle was parked? if so that will be enough to sink a claim.

You can ask the DVLA who has obtained your keeper detaisl and why and if they havne tmade 2 enquiries then again you have them over procedure.

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Wonder if they even applied separately to the DVLA for keeper details...

 

Ah yes, also the wrong location, they've put the land next door.

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exactly, they have to otherwise it isnt compliant. For example you muight have sold your car the day after the first event

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Do you have any clear images of the signage? From the google street view, it looks like they're using this same sign in all locations:

 

Mentions nothing about permits. The apparently violation in the NTK isn't on the signage. You were pre-authorised so it doesn't matter.

 

Small point, in the IAS COP, it states:

 

(A)11.2. You must ensure your company stationery and all other forms of correspondence or communication do not describe any charge which may be issued to a driver in terms that imply you have any authority as defined above by use of such words as ‘fine’ or ‘penalty’, nor must the term ‘PCN’ be used unless it has been previously defined as

reference to a ‘Parking Charge Notice’.

 

They never mentioned "Parking Charge Notice" before the first "PCN".

 

Also, they bodged up the appeals section on the NTK, as it says you can't appeal as they've already sent a notice to the hirer (?!)

3ktLWCe.png

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The IAS never follow their own CoP when making their determinations ( see the post about Attleborough amd 1 min stop) so I wouldnt be considering appealing on this. as Always, save it for IF they fancy their chances at court and slap them in your response to thier LBA with these uncomfortable truths. It will at least get you a full costs recovery order if they are stupid enough to want to waste their mioney on a claim.

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Signage next to car can be found in my other thread for another at the same location

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?490804-Euro-Parking-Services-NTK-No-ANPR-quot-Ashted-Lock-Dartmouth-Middleway-Ashted-Lock-Way-Birmingham-B7-4AZ&p=5162333&viewfull=1#post5162333

 

Still the wrong location (lot down the road) listed, however, they've not sent one for the ticket they issued for a completely different location.

 

From the letter, they've a number next to my name, which is the same as in other instances - so I'd be surprised if they have even contacted the DVLA more than once.

 

Is it worth firing off a SAR to DVLA regarding these?

Edited by dx100uk
merge
  • Haha 1

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Fired off an email to dvladatarequests AT dvla.gov.uk - let's see what I get back anyway

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if they have relied on the keeper details after the first one for the other ticket they will have dropped themsleves in the doodoo.

You can simply claim that you sold the car the next day and they wont have any evidence they contacted the keeper so no liability created and that applies to anyone, even the driver.

 

they cant just send out random demands and hope that someone passes the letter on.

Edited by dx100uk
spacing

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You mean theoretically say I sold it, right? Not actually say that ? (I'm sure the court could put me to strict proof that I had?)

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this id the point of the POFA and keeper liability. they have to jump through all of the hoops or there is no keeper liability. So yes in theory you could have sold the car to your son and bought it back a week later. all perfectly legal and if the seciond ticket was issued when he owned the car they ahvent written to the keeper so no liability whatsoever created between them and you.

judges rarely ask questions or put it to any proof on things like that, if the parking co gets it wrong then the judge rarely interferes, it isnt their job to prosecute the parking co's case for them

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Have had a response from the DVLA - as attached.

 

Seems they did request for them - but also made 2 requests for the same day? I presume one of those was the YMCA Erdington ticket - which someone must've actually reviewed for me to not have had a threatogram about....

Scan_20190205_100123 redacted.pdf

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Looks as if they have done their enquiries correctly. Yes two enquiries were made on the same day but their alleged breaches occurred on different days. In addition they appear to have issued two tickets on the same day but asked for your address on different dates.

Interesting that you had an alleged breach on the 23rd October which presumably was not a windscreen ticket since they asked the DVLA for your details the day after the event.

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