TORT Notice applied to my car. Housing Association car park **RESOLVED**

[repressed]

My Housing Association has stuck a TORT Notice on my car saying because theres no road tax displayed its abandoned.

Notice also says if not abandoned to call Housing Association, which I did.

I've said its not abandoned and its my car but Housing Association say it must be taxed, mot'd and insured.

 

I said tax disc have been abolished and don't need to displayed anymore but this was completely ignored.

 

When my road tax ran out at the start of the year, because it was parked in a private car park outside my home, I declared it as SORN and Ive also applied for a lock up garage from the local Council, not realising there's such a long waiting list.

 

The local council have said the car park is private property and owned by the Housing Association.

The Police said I have done the right thing and declared my car as SORN and took it off the road.

 

The Housing Association says it's stated in my Tenancy Agreement that cars in the car park must be roadworthy, taxed, mot'd and insured.

I ask, so as long as my car has MOT, road tax and is insured, it can remain in the car park ? The Housing Association said Yes.

 

I still have the Old Tenancy Agreement which I signed 16 years ago and New Tenancy Agreements are currently being introduced, which Ive not signed yet.

Both the old Tenancy Agreement and the new one, doesn't say cars in the car park must be roadworthy, taxed, mot'd and insured.

 

All that is stated in the old and new Tenancy Agreement, is a resident can park their own car in the residents car park and no repairs can be carried out other than routine maintenance.

No trailers, caravans, burger vans or commercial vehicles can be parked in the car park and a relatives car may not be parked in the car park long term.

 

I've asked the Housing Association to provide a copy of the Tenancy Agreement which says cars in the car park must be taxed, mot'd and insured but they've not done this and insisted that if I don't provide proof my car is taxed, mot'd and insured, my car will be removed, sold or destroyed and I will be charged for its removal.

 

Currently, I can't tax my car because the Mot has ran out, so it's not practical or convenient to do anything with the car but I don't see why the Housing Association have the right to remove and destroy my property when the DVLA allow motorist to declare their car's off road.?

[renegadeimp]

They cannot touch your vehicle. You could sue them if they did. You have followed all aspects of the law, and have it confirmed by the police you have done so. Theyre trying to overrule it. Of course, if they OWN the land, then they could remove it, but if they only manage it , they cant.

[repressed]

As far as Im aware it is the Housing Association land, during the 16 years I've lived here theres never been any mention of only managing the car park and signs around the car park say it's owned by the Housing Association, the local council have told me if they were ask to collect an ababdoned car from that car park, they wouldn't get involved as the car park is owned by the Housing Association.

[renegadeimp]

Is it possible for you to scan up a copy of that notice?

[stu007]

Hi

 

Nice to see a Housing Association riding roughshot with it's Service Users and thinking they are DVLA/PPC really.

 

There's no mention in your Old Tenancy Agreement about this and the Housing Association so far have failed to provide you evidence

as requested.

 

As for the Housing producing New Tenancy Agreements my advice would be Don't sign a new Tenancy Agreement refuse as they cannot force you and your Old Tenancy Agreement would stand.

 

What you now need to do is follow the HA Complaints Procedure and put your letter in writing and title it Formal Complaint and you want clarification of the following:

 

1. Exactly which part of your Tenancy Agreement states XYZ about vehicles in the carpark.

2. Exactly which Policy are the Housing Association using for this and to be provided a copy of that Policy.

3. Exactly which Policy states you can carry out Enforcement Action to remove vehicles and to be provided with a copy of that Policy.

4. You require a copy of the Housing Associations Complaints Policy (not the Leaflet)

 

Check the Housing Association website to see it there is anything on there about the carpark and vehicle standards etc

 

What I would also do is since the GDPR came in it is free so get a Subject Access Request (SAR) into them at the same time (check there website it may be there to download)

[dx100uk]

I would very much doubt the ha own the carpark

Look the land up on the councils website or land registry site

 

But anyway they cant enforce anything on you

[repressed]

Is it possible for you to scan up a copy of that notice?

 

I don't have facility to scan notice and my address and car details are shown which I don't won't to post online, I've tried installing photo editing apps to blank out details but it's beyong my expertise.

 

The Notices says,

 

ABANDONED UNTAXED VEHICLE 28 DAY NOTICE Contact Telephone XXXXXXXXXX

 

THIS VEHICLE HAS BEEN NOTIFIED TO US AS BEING ABANDONED AND/OR NOT HAVING VALID ROAD TAX AND WILL BE REMOVED WITHIN 28 DAYS OF THIS NOTICE BEING ISSUED.

IF THIS VEHICLE IS NOT ABANDONED PLEASE CONTACT US ON THE ABOVE NUMBER IMMEDIATELY OR ARRANGE FOR IT TO BE REMOVED FROM SITE

 

Under section 12 of the Torts(Interference with Goods)Act 1977 you are now obliged to removed your vehicle from this location. Failure to remove the vehicle from this location within 28 days of the date of this notice will result in the vehicle being sold or destroyed.

 

Date: XX/XX/18

Vehicle Reg: XXXXXXX

Time: XXXX

Offence: Abandoned/Untaxed

Location: XXXXXXX XXXXX car park XXXXX Road XXXXXXXXX

 

I would very much doubt the ha own the carpark

Look the land up on the councils website or land registry site

 

But anyway they cant enforce anything on you

 

The car park is within the housing estate, in the middle with only one entrance from the road and surrounding on two sides by two blocks of flats and rows of houses.

Its looked after by the HA.

 

Three department of the local council, Highways, Parking Enforcement and Rufuse Disposal (the dept that collects abandoned cars) have said in writing the car park is private property and owned by the HA.

[dx100uk]

check it is

owned and managed are not the same thing.

[stu007]

I have to agree with dx100uk you need to do your own research and check,

 

I could write a letter to you saying it is XYZ responsibility, would you believe that letter without any evidence to back up what is stated in the letter.

 

My own Housing Association has thousands of properties with numerous car parks for tenants around different buildings/Properties now the but the Housing Association is only the Landowner of where the Buildings/Properties Foundations are they Do Not Own numerous Car Parks around these Buildings/Properties as the Landowner of these is the Council.

 

I would also ask your Housing Association in writing for a copy of there Parking Policy (not the Leaflet) you want there Policy to see if they have followed it. (now that's only if they have that Policy, if they don't I would question them as to why)

Edited November 23, 2018 by stu007

[repressed]

Hi

 

Nice to see a Housing Association riding roughshot with it's Service Users and thinking they are DVLA/PPC really.

 

There's no mention in your Old Tenancy Agreement about this and the Housing Association so far have failed to provide you evidence

as requested.

 

As for the Housing producing New Tenancy Agreements my advice would be Don't sign a new Tenancy Agreement refuse as they cannot force you and your Old Tenancy Agreement would stand.

 

What you now need to do is follow the HA Complaints Procedure and put your letter in writing and title it Formal Complaint and you want clarification of the following:

 

1. Exactly which part of your Tenancy Agreement states XYZ about vehicles in the carpark.

2. Exactly which Policy are the Housing Association using for this and to be provided a copy of that Policy.

3. Exactly which Policy states you can carry out Enforcement Action to remove vehicles and to be provided with a copy of that Policy.

4. You require a copy of the Housing Associations Complaints Policy (not the Leaflet)

 

Check the Housing Association website to see it there is anything on there about the carpark and vehicle standards etc

 

What I would also do is since the GDPR came in it is free so get a Subject Access Request (SAR) into them at the same time (check there website it may be there to download)

 

Thanks for your very thorough reply.

 

I more or less already done everything you've said, all in writing by email and all replies are by email as well.

 

Only difference, none of my emails are actual complaints but asking the same questions you have listed, asking the HA to provide copies of the TA and the legislation that gives the HA the authority to inspect my vehicle vehicle documents and remove my car if not taxed etc

 

As for the new Tenancy Agreements, that's just coincidence and nothing to do with my current issue, I only mentioned it because even the new Agreement which has lots of clauses and sub sections still doest have a section that says cars in the car park must be roadworthy, taxed, mot'd and insured.

 

I wasn't planning to sign the new TA until I'd sought legal advice but due to current issue I won't be signing.

 

I'm aware of HA complaint procedure but was waiting for a reply to my last email.

 

I've already told the HA they have no authority to remove my property without my permission and as my car has not been abandoned then the Tort Notice should be cancelled.

 

I'm unsure why you suggest I submit a SAR ?

 

check it is

owned and managed are not the same thing.

 

It's not a council property or estate managed by a HA, I remember the estate being built in the late 80's, it was a HA then, which merged with another HA, which later became my current HA and landlord.

Edited November 27, 2018 by dx100uk
merge

[dx100uk]

but they do NOT own the LAND. they manage it.

so they cannot enforce any RULES over the carpark.

[repressed]

I have to agree with dx100uk you need to do your own research and check,

 

I could write a letter to you saying it is XYZ responsibility, would you believe that letter without any evidence to back up what is stated in the letter.

 

My own Housing Association has thousands of properties with numerous car parks for tenants around different buildings/Properties now the but the Housing Association is only the Landowner of where the Buildings/Properties Foundations are they Do Not Own numerous Car Parks around these Buildings/Properties as the Landowner of these is the Council.

 

I would also ask your Housing Association in writing for a copy of there Parking Policy (not the Leaflet) you want there Policy to see if they have followed it. (now that's only if they have that Policy, if they don't I would question them as to why)

 

 

I've requested the HA policy on parking and they say there isn't one.

When I said, as there isn't a parking policy how can you demand that my car is roadworthy, taxed, mot'd and insured, they answer, it's in your Tenancy Agreement.

I ask HA to provide copy of TA to show this and HA said I should read my own TA.

I tell the HA that my TA does not say cars in the car park must be roadworthy, taxed, mot'd and insured.

HA reply by requesting I submit proof my car is taxed, mot'd and insured otherwise my car will be removed and destroyed.

 

My TA says, as a resident I can park my car in the residents car park, so in my opinion, I have permission to park my car in the car park and even if there was a clause that say my car must be taxed, mot'd and insured and it isn't, why would that give the HA the authority to remove and destroy my property ?

 

How will I canfirm, who actually owns the car park or the land the car park sits on ?

 

A sign at the entrance of the car park, says the car park is private property and own by the HA

[stu007]

Hi

 

Thanks for the further information.

 

As I have said you need to make this a 'Formal Complaint' as you have tried to be nice with the HA to resolve this and in doing so this won't be recorded in there complaints system which the Regulator on an inspection can view.

 

So everything you have politely asked by email you now need to follow the HA Complaints Procedure and fully exhaust this and if still unhappy with response off to Housing Ombudsman.

 

Make sure and title your letter 'Formal Complaint' and explain the issue and everything you have asked for in your emails. (make sure and get free proof of posting from the post office). you now need to keep a good paper trail of evidence.

[dx100uk]

land registry site

check who OWNS the carpark land

 

make SURE you only use the .gov.uk site

else you'll get sc@mmed on fees

 

there is a small charge by not much

[repressed]

Hi

 

Thanks for the further information.

 

As I have said you need to make this a 'Formal Complaint' as you have tried to be nice with the HA to resolve this and in doing so this won't be recorded in there complaints system which the Regulator on an inspection can view.

 

So everything you have politely asked by email you now need to follow the HA Complaints Procedure and fully exhaust this and if still unhappy with response off to Housing Ombudsman.

 

Make sure and title your letter 'Formal Complaint' and explain the issue and everything you have asked for in your emails. (make sure and get free proof of posting from the post office). you now need to keep a good paper trail of evidence.

 

Must formal complaint to HA be by letter with proof of posting etc ?

 

I've not long had a Housing Ombudsman complaint found in my favour from last year, same HA different issue and my Formal Complaint and all communication was by email and all copies were submitted to the Ombudsman.

 

I thought email was best as I have proof of when email/complaint sent, who to, who from and time ?

 

Why did you suggest I submit a SAR,what would I be requesting ?

 

land registry site

check who OWNS the carpark land

 

make SURE you only use the .gov.uk site

else you'll get sc@mmed on fees

 

there is a small charge by not much

 

Yeah, I'm aware of land registry, didn't expect it would show ownership of LA/HA land, thanks

Edited November 27, 2018 by dx100uk
merge

[dx100uk]

just send an sar

they must comply its a legal requirement.

[repressed]

I understand the HA must comply but why do I need to send a SAR ?

 

How will knowing what personal data the HA hold help the issue with my car ?

 

The land registry shows details of each individual property on the estate and says my home is leasehold but doesn't say who the leaseholder is and theres no mention of the car park, apparently this information is on the title deeds.

 

What's the benefit of knowing who actually owns the land the car park sits on ?

 

I'm using the terms of my TA to use the car park which says,

You can only use the car park to park your private vehicle in.

 

So no matter who actually owns the car park it's says I can use it in my TA, so my argument is with the HA attempting to force an unwritten rule, they've even said my car can stay if taxed and Mot'd.

 

Land registry details I mentioned in previous post incorrect for my use.

 

I must download form SI map from land registry website, send by mail with cheque or postal order for £4, this will identify land area of interest, which will create a registry title number,

 

The registry title number can be used online at a cost of £3 to reveal who owns the land.

Edited November 27, 2018 by dx100uk
merge

[Surfer01]

If they remove the vehicle and destroy it after you have informed them in writing that it is not abandoned, then you may be able to claim some serious compensation from them?

[renegadeimp]

it would be theft and unlawful destruction of property. I would advise seeking the experience of a solicitor. Most give the first half hour free and it should be enough to decide what course of action to take

[ericsbrother]

you have written to the office that deals with the gibberish that has been sent out so now you go to the top of the tree.

 

Find out who the trustees of the HA are and let them know that there is no breach of tenancy and that THEY can and will be held personally responsible for the actions of their employees.

 

They have chosen to exercise a right to sell the goods but they are not the bailee of the goods and they know who the owner is so they are on a slippery slope.

 

To me it looks like they need an injunction to prevent you from leaving the vehicle there but if the car can be driven then moving to another space in the car park will negate any action as there is no necessity to have tax and MOT, just insurance.

 

However you have to think about the long term, the car as it stands isnt roadworthy and their claim that being where it is interferes with their rights and the rights of other tenants is quite persuasive.

 

I presume that it isnt insured either?

that may be a deciding factor so consider getting insurance for the vehicle and check to see if the policy has built in legal cover as some do and some charge an extra premium for the same

Edited November 23, 2018 by dx100uk
Spacing

[repressed]

I did consider laid up insurance when I first took it off the road but when getting quotes, to be covered my car had to be garaged or in an enclosed yard or at least on my own gated driveway.

 

The laid up insurance is of benefit but whatever, there are no terms in my TA which specifically says my car must be taxed, mot'd and insured when in the car park and government legislation allows cars to be declared off road and I've followed this legislation.

 

The Tort notice, (which I believe is not valid because my car hasn't been abandoned), but it does say the address of the car park and uses the term car park, so moving my car to a different place in the car park is still in the car park.

 

Due to the HA over zealous approach, I prefer to fight this but based on the terms of my TA, SORN legislation and the reasons why the HA believe my car has been abandoned.

 

HA say, in my TA it says cars parked in the car park must be roadworthy, taxed, mot'd and insured.

 

My TA and the new TA which is being introduced, both do not have a term which says cars in the car park must be taxed, mot'd and insured.

 

I asked the HA, will the Tort notice be cancelled and can my car stay in the car park if I tax, mot and insurance it and the HA said yes, this proves there's no other reason why the HA have issued the Tort notice.

 

If my car stays in the car park, untaxed without a mot or insurance, what authority does the HA have to act above that of the DVLA, Police and local Council ?

 

It is still my car and my property, parked in the car park, where a car is meant to be parked and my TA says as a resident, I can park my car in the car park, it's not a washing machine.

 

Saying that. at the far end of the car park, there's a settee, rolled up carpet and a frige.

Edited November 23, 2018 by repressed

[renegadeimp]

If the land is their property, then theres a few things they can do to remove it. Thats why its so important to find out who actually owns the land., as only they can do anything.

[repressed]

What can the landowner do that the HA can't ?

 

Why not give the advice, if you know of any rather than withholding until I know who the landowners is

 

It's the HA making the demands and I have a TA with the HA which gives permission to use the car park, I don't have any agreement with the landowner unless the HA is also the landowner.

 

I don't have time to be wait for the land registry to reply by mail.

[renegadeimp]

Because advice depends on who owns it. If the HA doesnt own it, they cant do a thing. We've already said that. If they do, then they can issue a notice advising you to remove it within a certain timeframe, or they will.

 

Right now, you or us, do not know 100% who owns the land, so nobody can give you concrete advice. Look at it from the HA side. For all they know, it could have been dumped.

 

One thing in your favour, as already said, is that NOTHING that they have said is in your TA.

[dx100uk]

I would guess that its the insurance that's troubling them.

 

if it caught fire etc etc and it damaged other peoples 'whatever' they'd have to cough up.

 

not that 'they' could force you too get insurance mind.