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Residential parking harassment

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I need some help in fighting a PPC that is harassing me for parking outside my home.

 

Multiple tickets issued this year. Appealed to PPC for several of these tickets as I had been ignoring them, appeal failed. Did not appeal to POPLA.

 

Now they are issung tickets without a NTD (ticket on windscreen) just photos of my car taken manually. The mutiple tickets before this all had a similar set of photos, but with a photo of the yellow NTD.

 

They apply to DVLA for keepers details immediately and there is only 2 -3 days between date of alleged contravention and me receiving a NTK. This is the timeframe for ANPR tickets under PoFA, but the car park is not ANPR.

 

As far as I am aware, there are only two ways of issuing tickets and thats manually or by automatic number plate recognition.

 

The question is are PPC's allowed to issue tickets by post without a NTD?

 

I've appealed to PPC on some of these but heard nothing back, but its still within timeframe. Grounds were ticket didnt comply with POFA and my deeds specifically state I can park there, and my deeds have primacy over their contract

 

Any advice on how to stop this harassment ?

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Hi. What reason/s are they giving for you not being able to park outside your home please? Is it on a development that's in bed with a PPC? HB


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They say its permit parking only, and we have not been issued permits.

 

Some history...... Visitors car park with 12 bays, positioned between two residential developments. Since 1994 residents of both developments enjoyed the use of the car park. No one knew who owned it, and the attached gardens, so my mangement company maintained it.

 

Several years ago it was discovered that the other Management company were the actual owners of the land. This is the third PPC they have brought in, on previous two occasions we were also issued permits, on this occasion we were told that we could no longer park there and no reason given.So the tickets are issued for not displaying a permit. Even though I dont really need one, I guess we would still cooperate in order to help the managment of parking.

Edited by honeybee13
Paras

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That's difficult as there are about 14 tickets, some have been issued with NTD and some haven't. They have used the time frames for ANPR when no system exists on this site.

 

Would the details of one ticket suffice, especially one that didn't issue NTD as I don't believe they comply with PoFA or the Code of Practice and therefore warrants a complaint both to BPA and the DVLA?

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Hi

I have struggled to find out whether these cases are classed as ANPR. As no windscreen tickets were issued and only photo's taken this would generally fall under ANPR however, there are no ANPR cameras on the site so is it a 'Notice to Driver' or a 'Notice to Keeper'??

 

Even though they are sending a NTK, I can't see how it could be classed as such. It should be a NTD but as they are not issuing tickets, it leaves me with the conundrum. I would think that POPLA should have some data about that somewhere

 

We do need to see the NTK (suitably redacted) and an answer to the link above. I would do it for the latest one. Which company?


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Many of the IPC members have latched on to their ATA's wheeze regarding the slack wording of the POFA to issue NTK's as you descrobe, it isnt wrong as ther law doesnt actually say ANPR but the parking co may ahve a problem with mitigating their actions if challenged under specific circumstances.

 

Your problem can be solved by throwing a lot of money at it because you have been parking there without any intervention for 12 years you have created a right to do so whether th actual lnadowners like it or not. Now whwere it gets expensive is actually enforcing that right by laying down some evidence to a coyurt and then getting an injunction against the parking co (and the landowner of necessary) to get them to stop this and also get your costs of the action back as well.

Also tell us where this is so we can look at the satellite images to see if we can tell the difference between the 2 sites by way of defined boundaries etc.

 

If we can see what the signage at the site says, know who the parking co is and see the wording of one of the NTK's then a cheaper alternative is more that likely a better solution. As they are saying permit parking only then it isnt a contractual matter as you cant be offered a contract so ther landowner has to start a fight over trespass and that is nowt to do with any parking co.

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1 Date of the infringement 5.11.18

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 7 November 18

 

3 Date received 9th November

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? (YES)

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes, manual photos taken of car, but no NTD (ticket) issued. Seems strange to not stick a ticket on the windscreen and still take photos of car.

 

Note - This is not an ANPR site but the ticket has been issued as if it was.

 

6 Have you appealed? Yes, appealed to PPC

Have you had a response? No

 

7 Who is the parking company ....Minster Baywatch

 

8. Where exactly [residential estate Stockton.)

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. BPA

 

Please look at the difference to the other NTK's I have received, one acknowledges that a ticket was issued and stuck to windscreen, and these other, more dodgy ones, have no mention that a NTD was issued.

NTK 7 Nov 2018 copy.pdf

NTK 12 june 2018 copy.pdf

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we need to know EXACTLY where otherwise we cant look it up on Go Ogle

If you have received a NTD ( screen ticket) in the past we would also like to see that and its matching NTK. It wont help you as yopu have appealed but it may help your neighbours iof they have suffered the same fate

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yes I've uploaded copy of two types of NTK for the same alleged contravention.

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not a proper NTK as they fail to say who the creditor is.

As already said we need to be able to see the location and you have blanked that out on the NTK. What they say has to match wiht an anctual address or obvious geographical location so just " sainsburys car park london is nowhere near good enough

If we dont know then we cant help you, simple as that so please supply the necessary infomation

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The location is Stockton,Trinity Mews TS17 6BQ

 

I am very confident that I would win an appeal or any court case.

But this is a case of harassment, 14 tickets for parking outside my own home as I have done for 17 years and so did the owner before me.

My deeds give me primacy over any contract in place.

 

I believe that they have breached PoFA rules by not issuing a NTD.

This is not an ANPR site and previous tickets were issued manually.

They cannot switch and change procedures to suit themselves.

It would appear to me that an NTD has to be issued and, if one cannot be issued such as ANPR, then the rules and time frames apply accordingly.

These people are using the rules of ANPR whilst taking manual photos and not issuing a NTD.

 

This is where I need some help as this harassment continues even though I have pointed out to them they are in breach of POFA for the reasons stated.

If we can establish that this is clearly a breach, then I can ask the DVLA to apply sanctions against the company for requesting Keeper Info without reasonable cause.

 

They also know that my deeds have primacy over their contract and still apply each time to DVLA for keeper details in full knowledge that I have the unfettered right to park there, again this shows they do not have reasonable cause.

 

Hopefully giving grounds for complaint and action to be taken by the DVLA, who can suspend these companies if they are not complying with the law.

Maybe its a long shot but I'm sick of the harassment and if they want a fight,

then I will fight back,

and with your help, stop them from harassing me.

Edited by dx100uk
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you are wrong on several points and you wont win an appeal at POPLA because the remit they work to doesnt cover the points you make.

also as said, you are wrong about the improper issuing of a NTK, it is properly issued but just not in the way it was intended when the law was written.

if you can get a copy of hansard you may well prove me wrong but it would be rare for even a lower court to consider that.

 

At the moment you havent shown why it is harassment and why they should stop.

i have already said that you have created an easement but again you will have to go to court to enforce that right and that will cost you a considerable amount as injunctions arent a small claims matter.

 

So lets concentrate on what is practicable and show us some pictures of the signs that we can read.

From what I see on streetview there are more than one sort of sign and the largest isnt an offer of a contract but at best an invitation to treat and at worst a forbidding order and that means no contract.

 

Now some of the bays have no signage at all on gogge so is that still the case?

Pictures of where you were parked would be useful so we can match up the images with google noseyneighbour and pick things apart.

Edited by dx100uk
spell/space

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I guess I'm not understanding things.

 

I believed that the NTK was improperly issued, because previous tickets included photos of car, and a photo of a NTD (ticket) stuck to windscreen. Now they just take manual photos of car with no ticket on windscreen. If they have to issue a NTD when its possible to do so, but don't, then I don't understand how it is compliant.

 

I have photo of the sign but the software is not letting me upload for some reason. I'll keep on trying.

 

I believe its harassment because my deeds allow me the peaceful enjoyment of my home,including the right to park outside my house. Sending 14 NTD's together with reminders to pay up or else, threatening me with court action, is something I consider harassment, although I accept for some it isn't.

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read upload use PDF


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Parking permit sign

 

parking sign

 

The creditor (person entitled to recover the parking charge – the PPC) must have a contractual right to recover the parking charge from the driver and must be unaware of the name and current address of that driver.

 

5. Either

 

a. The driver received what the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 calls a, ‘Notice to Driver’ (parking ticket) , at the time the vehicle was stationary in the car park, followed by the, ‘Notice to Keeper’, both of which must comply with the requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (see below); or

 

b. Where a ‘Notice to Driver’ was not served because of the use of automatic number plate recognition (ANPR), then just a, ‘Notice to Keeper’ has been served on you.

 

As I understand it, only two ways of issuing tickets, manually or ANPR. Are there other circumstances where a NTD does not have to be issued?

Parking permit sign.pdf

sign.pdf

Edited by dx100uk
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When you say 'Your Deeds', is that leasehold?

 

You cannot breach a contract where no contract was offered. The signs are prohibitory in nature. Your paperwork states that you have the right to park. This was before MB took over so unless you have agreed to let MB manage the car park, the rules cannot apply to you. Primacy of Contract. My opinion anyway.

 

Oh yes, the sign is non compliant either as they don't give a physical address. PO boxes are not good enough.

 

Having looked on Google Spy on My Street I assume the land in question is this:

 

http://tinyurl.com/y7d2qgut


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you have paraphrased the law to fit in with your understanding of it.

Just accept they arent incorrect on those grounds and argue about something you can easily win rather than wasting time on a heroic failure.

 

So decent close up pictures of the signage and pictures of any signs that are different as I can see at least 3 signs there 2 of which are different content but the ones I saw on google are different to the one you have posted up so go and get everything,

 

including a picture of the sign above the one you have photographed about orders from the management committee and nimals. It is all evidence that the signs arent that clearly displayed.

 

Now about the right to park outside your house, we need to know more about that.

 

As for harassment, as the one of the few people who have sued a parking co for harassment I can tell you that the bar is set very high as to what constitutes harassment and my advice is forget it until you have got as far as court proceedings.

 

Beat them there on one claim and you have them for harassment for every subsequent action but if you take the British gas harassment case even 60 letters isnt enough, it is what else they do and dont do that matters.

 

Breach of the GDPR and damages as per Vidall Hall and others v Google and VCS v Phillip are a much easier route after knocking them off their high horse

Edited by dx100uk
Space/spell

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Thank you for your help, it really is appreciated.

 

Well my letter to them asking to cease and desist fell on deaf ears.

 

Today I have again received another 'dodgy' NTK, no ticket on windscreen, just four manually taken photos of car parked in its usual place.

It baffles me why the guy who takes the photos just doesn't attach a ticket as he is supposed to do.

NTK sent within the ANPR time frame, (2 days).

This is not an ANPR site and has no such equipment.

 

I have uploaded more sign photos and site area and map and deeds stating I can park in any place marked VP on site map.

signs in car park.pdf

car park map 3.pdf

first schedule deeds parking.pdf

Trinity sign.pdf

Edited by dx100uk
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I've just discovered that there is such a thing as manual ANPR.

Abit of a contradiction but there you go.

 

Apparently the enforcement officer takes a photo of the car and it is connected to an app, that reads the number plate.

That,apparently qualifies as ANPR, and NTK's are issued, in my case, within 2 days.

 

Does anyone know if this has ever been challenged?

Edited by dx100uk
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Who says that?


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From a group on facebook '[removed ...please read our rules - dx] '.

 

Other motorists are being issued NTK, without a NTD and an admin came on and explained that its a manual camera, connected with an app that has number recognition software that converts it to data.

This, he claimed, was ANPR also.

I think its a grey area, and I'm not sure if its ever been challenged.

 

This is the BPA code of practice definition of ANPR.

 

"ANPR Automatic Number Plate Recognition is a

technology that uses specialist cameras, software and

image processing to capture vehicle registration plates

and converts the registration plate images into data.

Photographs are taken at the entry and exit points of

a car park showing when a vehicle arrives and when it leaves"

 

Nothing about manual cameras using this technology, and I'm not sure of the legal standing of such a definition.

Edited by dx100uk
remoced facebook group

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an admin from where?


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From that other group


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

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ANPR has to be a fixed installation that reads and operates AUTOMATICALLY, with no human intervention, a guy with a Smartphone and an app ain't ANPR in my book as it is neither automatic, nor continuous.


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