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pinkabvelvet

VCS CCTV PCN Claimform - no stopping - Access Road to Pontefract Race Course, WF8 4PR

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Absolutely, there is stuff on there regarding No Stopping as a prohibition, a PPC usually has no course of action, in that circumstance as there can be no contract to park offered,   There is plenty to undermine their claim.


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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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Thanks brassnecked & EB

- I have made a start at my WS and starting to feel more confident after reading around.

 

Will continue to research, snap some more evidence photos and will upload when I think it’s ready for you guys to give a once over :) 

 

on their sign they do state “no stopping or parking zone”

I am hoping to prove that at the point in which I made the decision to turn into this part of land there were no signs whatsoever to indicate this.

 

The first sign (which I did not see at the time of the “contravention” is also 7 feet up in the air, impossible to read when driving and at a junction where cars can turn right to join the road so you are busy watching the other cars.

 

I have found the prankster post all about this.

Then my car rolled to a halt and I had no grace period as my car was not in a functioning state. Plus the other points about them not having a contract etc etc.

 

Am I on the right lines? 

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the most imporanat thing about a "no parking or stopping" sign is that it is prohibitive in nature. the only reason a parking co can charge you for anything is because you have entered into a contract with them and then either owe them money as a contractual agreement or as a result of a breach of contract. A sign saying "no parking" or "no stopping" isnt an offer of terms for parking and if you think about it if it was an offer of terms the only way of forming a contract would be to break it so unfair terms anyway.

 

What you have considered so far is part of the whole story from your point of view and if you follow that by explaining as you are how you eneter the land, what you see (or dont) and what happened to your vehicle then you end up withat least 4 reasons as to why no contract was formed and thus broken so you cant owe them money for the same.

 

as said earlier, they know they are on to a hiding to nothing but wont admit they are wrong becasue they will never earn a penny ever again as they would know their demands are just plain fraud and will wait and see what you have to say before chucking the towel in so they dont have to pay you your costs of whipping them in court.

 

At the end of all this you will have a cast iron case for suing them if you have the stamina for a return match as they have obtained and processed your personal data without a reason for doing so. again they will whinge that they thought they were right but they have lost so many cases of this nature (esp at Liverpool airport) such a claim is laughable but again hope that you dont go after them.

 

If you feel like winding them up go and park there agin after the court case and see if they dare issue you a NTK If they dont you will know that they are just chancers and have not a grain of integrity in them.

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The cases they lost at Liverpool John Lennon Airport relied on the same basic POC they applied to you.  there they have camera cars parked up which capture the "evidence"  They would invoice someone on a pedal cycle, or electric assist cycle if they stopped to read the sign, as in the camera car operator would drive up and demand the cyclists details as no VED to send NTK.  How do I know?  i phoned and asked VCS.  Agaon they would lose cyclist could tell them to Foxtrot oscar, or if they had details and tried court would be spanked there for sure if claim defended.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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Thanks EB - From your feedback and from all of the other threads I have been reading I  hope I am on the right lines with my WS. i'll keep going with it and upload when I think it's ready for your expert eyes! Currently at 21 points, trying to be very "matter of fact" and succinct with my points.

I know for certain that if I ventured there again and left my car there I would get papped by the ANPR car, I regularly see it and if a car is parked in this specific zone it suddenly appears from nowhere.

 

Thanks Brassnecked - I have been using the Liverpool threads as per your advice, if I win perhaps I'll use the money that i don't have to fork out to them and buy myself a bicycle to tell them to foxtrot oscar in person! ;)

 

 

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there is a standard way of writing these things as well and that is in the third person so you write " the defendant" rather than "I".

Also avoid opinion where possible so no saying " i think that...." and you dont say things are unfair or improper unless you mean unfair as in the law of contracts and then you quote for example  S62 of the CRA 2015 for what unfair is.

refer to VCS as "the claimant" as well, it is not only the formal way of writing but it avoids confusion which can occur when you use terms like "they" or "Simon Renshaw-Smith" or "lying gits" as they can be interchageable but my not necessarilty always be one and the same

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Judges will usually give more leeway to a Litigant in person, but they as EB indicates like at least an attempt at ptoper terminology, so the Claimant is bets way to indicate who you are mentioning, they don't like derogatory comments.


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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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thanks EB - I have been writing in this formal 3rd person style, calling myself "the defendant" and have referred to VCS as "the claimant".  Will go through and make sure I consistent throughout! So far i haven't put anything about "unfair" but I will insert it and quote the reference you have advised :)

With regards to references, for example if i refer to a specific thing ie IPC Code of Practice Part B11.1, in the annex & exhibits would I just put the excerpt in there or the whole IPC CoP document?

Also, do i have to print off 2 copies of everything ie, annex, ws, all exhibits & photographic evidence ets? (1 for me, 1 for the court & 1 for VCS)?

 

Thanks BN - will make sure i follow your advice! As much as i would like to slip in a derogatory remark about "the claimant" i will hold my tongue :p

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Hi All,

I have a first draft of my WS if you wouldn't mind taking a look. I won't upload the annex/ exhibits just yet (as they would need to be redacted and tidied up etc) but from my WS you can understand what the exhbits are that i am referring to.

Comments & feedback greatly appreciated!

FYI The section in bright blue, i am not sure if this should be included or whether these would form the basis of a counter claim? 

GDPR section highlighted in green, the source i used was a little old -  is there an updated GDPR reference I should include?

:)

Witness Statement Draft.pdf

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I will read it carefully but the 1st thing that leaps out at me is para 3 . 

They havent failed to show a cause for action BECAUSE of their failure to respond to a CPR31.14 request for documents, but you can say the defendant doesn not beleive they have a cause for action because they have failed to produce evidnece of a contract with the landowner etc UNDER a cpr31.14 and it is believed they have no locus standi in this matter

 

and the you can attack their paucity of the particulars of claim by saying they dont say why they are suing you, and in what capacity and whether it is for monies owed under a contractual term or for breach of contract, both of which are denied.

 

on 6 they are not a BPA member but as the BPA is the main trade association they have to show that they either comply with their code of practice or show that what they do is somehow better than this( and that couild be the IPC CoP if markedly better for the protection of the public, not just to favour the parking co)

 

where you quote the parking pranksetrs blog you quote the case number that the commentary refers to and you copy the entire blog as part of your evidence bundel, same with pictures, maps etc

 

at point 24 it is the GDPR 2018 tat is the relevant law and you need to read throught the guidelines as to how this applies but they have been caught with their pants down before so they know they had no "reasonable cause" to obtain your keeper details in the first place and the process this information.

 

they have lied to the DVLA and this is actionable should you fancy suing them but unless you are counterclaiming ( tricky strategy) keep it minimal as to the effect of this breach cos it isnt criminal.

 

what I would also do is tell the whole story of what happenred after your denial of any breaches of contract but before you go into the detail of why they are wrong.

 

So a short bit about driving to the land from the ( whatever public road) and no signs were visible.

You broke down and called the recovery service. in the meanwhile some chap turns up and starts photographing your vehicle without explaining why or asking if everything was OK or offering help in getting it moved.

 

then say how long it took for recovery and add the bit about docket for same.

You can then say that VCS failed to mitigate any supposed damages by not asking why you were there, offering to help you move or even warning that you aren't allowed to break down without incurring an unlawful penalty charge for doing so.

 

Now apart from making them look like the slobs they are it also raises important legal points about mitigation of losses and puts the onus on them to explain why they did nothing other than just take pictures wich themselves may fall foul of the GDPR because there was no express consent which would be required unlike the use of a ANPR system.

 

This point may be outside the interest of this case but worth looking at the GDPR and at least suggesting they have abused their contract (if they have one) with both their employer and the data subject as there should be a minimum of a warning that they are taking pictures of people for this purpose rather than just the anonymised numberplate capture that is covered by a different section of the law. ( worth asking the ICO office if VCS have permission for taking individual puictures of identifiable people fro purposes that are outside the nature of their business) and different ICO registration

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thanks EB - will start updating as per your advice. I will try and get the amended one uploaded tomorrow so you can disregard the WS I posted earlier? 

I have also written to the ICO, as you suggested, received an automated response that I should get an answer within 14 days.

:)

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Hi everyone,

Here's the 2nd draft :) 

I do feel it is a little disorganised and I am not sure what should go where; but I am going with the approach of research and put in as much detail as possible and then cut things out/ restructure as necessary... I have about 50 tabs open trying to find relevant info to insert etc.

I still haven't organised the Exhbits/ Annex sorted but can do that once the WS is more organised.

Section in Bright Blue - perhaps I should delete unless intend to counter claim?

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Witness Statement Draft 2.pdf

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re: Town and country Planning Act 2007

look on the parking pranksters blog for dec 2017, there is an article that goes into this but more importantly at the bottom of the blog there is a link to a paper written by a retired lawyer on the planning necessity for parking signs. Most parking co's will claim in court they dont need it as signage is too small and they ahve "deemed consent" Well, if isgnage is too small for planning it is too small to read and anyways they DO need PP because of the nature of the signage, not the size. You copy the entire paper and use that  as well as a copy of the regulations in the 2007 Act

 

leave in para 29 as it is relevant and VCS may well think that you are intending to go after them in ther future because we recommend that you do that rather than counterclaim. It will have the effect of making it more likelty they will bottle and discontinue to try and avoid costs as it is patently obvious they know they have no cause for action and so their behaviour is totally unreasonable and thus you can apply for a costs order whether they call it off or not

 

Any single point you raIse may well be the one the judeg decides to focus on and determines thaVCS dotn ahve a claim. we cant say which will be picked up on first adn whether they would consider the others at all once it i shown that the claim is duff because there is no furhter need. Also they tend to try and avoid humiliating  the parties present even when they should know better. they may rip into a solicitor bt rarely a lay person and VCS will hope that is continues that way so they can keep on at least using the legal process to harass and coerce the punters into paying up even if they lose every defended claim

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Thanks eB - will continue to work on it & insert details as per your advice. 

On the whole, do you think I am on the right lines once everything has been tidied up and organised?

I’ll get the evidence bundle organised as well - even if I only refer to one specific point in the data protection act for example I would still have to include the whole act in my bundle? The courts and VCS also get a copy of everything also right? A lot of printing & expensive postage if so!

thanks for your help as always! 

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You refer to an entrance sign in your draft WS. Is there a copy of the sign on here anywhere - or can you post a copy up for us to see?

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I hope this is ok - i had to reduce the quality in order to post. 

 

1806148431_IMG_1101(2).jpg.84b22c0c07e66234c240eb91fdb2ea90.jpg

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Is that where the car was parked? It doesn't look like the actual entrance to the site.

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Here is the other sign, but it wasn't visible from where i was sitting and waiting for the recovery vehicle ( I was sitting on a step).  Unfortunately, this sign was situated right next to my car, but as I was parked on the left hand curb and from where i was sitting in the driver's seat i had no idea it was there until i got out of my car.

Sign 2.pdf

 

No, this is the entrance sign to the access road when it turns into a “no stopping/ parking zone”. It wasn’t actually a car park I broke down in but the access road between pc world & pets at home. I broke down a little bit further along down the road. There are other signs with a lot more text on but than this but this is the only one that was facing me as such as I entered this area (but I still didn’t see it!). My car came to a stop next to a different sign...

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Is there another sign above that last one you posted? It looks like the bottom of a sign directly above it.

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Posted (edited)

So... "No parking or waiting on access road". That reads as if it should be positioned at the entrance onto the private land (i.e. "you are entering onto private land - only do so if you agree not to stop on any access roads or you must pay £100") - then there would be  prominent signs on the site stating "Access road", on those roads which they determine to be as such. This would give you an opportunity to stop and read the sign before entering onto the private land and thereby accepting an implied offer to drive over the access roads on the site, based on the terms outlined. This isn't the case, however. You're already on the site by the time the terms are presented to you, so you would be entitled to stop your vehicle on any non-permitted area for a reasonable amount while you inspect the offer and terms being made. Would 43 seconds be seen as reasonable - I don't think so.

 

It's all a bit of a shambles in my view - but there's nothing new there. I'm just pointing this out as a different angle to potentially use in addition to what the other guys have said above.  You can also twist it the other way and use the prohibitive argument, so definitely use both to undermine their position that a contract was entered into by the time they issued the charge. It also has nowt to do with an offer of parking, which is the supposed remit of the parking management company?

 

I think your WS could do with a bit of refining, but you can always bung everything in now and then start condensing it later.

Edited by shamrocker

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thanks Shamrocker - will include your comments in my WS, thanks for your help. I have so many arguments in there as to why they are wrong it is hard to keep it organised but like you say, I can add everything in now and then streamline later.

Better to have too many arguments than not enough that's for sure.

 

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Hi all,

 

I got a response from the ICO, he also gave me his direct number if would like to discuss it further.

 

Thank you for your email of 29 April 2019.

In order to process personal information, the organisation would need to be able to justify why they are doing so and identify a lawful basis for the processing of the data in this way. As an individual, you have the right to be informed about how your data is being used, including the reason for the processing.

If you have concerns with how Vehicle Controls Services Ltd are handling personal information, you should first raise these concerns in writing with the organisation, allowing them to address your concerns. You can see further guidance on raising a concern with an organisation through our website.

The reason this step is necessary is that if it was to come back to the Information Commissioner's Office as a complaint, we need to see written evidence of the concern being raised in order for us to be able to make an assessment on the organisation's compliance. 
 

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When you spank VCS in court then you have them under GDPR, and then onto ICO.


We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHER

 

Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group

 

If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread

 

The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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fingers crossed!  

Inserting everyone's comments/feedback into my WS, will get the annex & exhibits organised and gather any further evidence as I see fit. I have a lot of arguments, but just need to make sure i put them forward in the strongest (and most cohesive way!).

Defence due to be filed on 7th May :)

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