Smart Meters A discussion

[tobyjugg2]

While we wait

 

Large industry has had the options with HV supplies to allow reductions in voltage or even shut off during peak times (and the power factor stuff really works unlike with home supplies) for decades

 

Do these smart meters allow reduction of voltage?

Don't think so - but they would be more useful to the energy infrastructure if they could stabilise and even reduce voltage - although that facility would quickly risk being abused. Probably far too costly though.

 

As far as I can see, Pretty much all other energy network benefits would only be if either:

 

* The meters included a seperate to eveything else 'switch off circuit' which supplied fridges and the like (especially kettles - no more Coro peaks) which could be shut off for 15 mins at a time - would require a few hundred quids (at least) worth of rewiring in you house though

 

or

 

* Everyone bought smart fridge freezers at massive cost that the smart meter could control - a cost to the customer of FAR more than a few hundred quid

and as we see with the smart meters themselves - what standards do they work to?

 

 

Seems to me (and I worked on early tests of smart metering 30+ years ago) these smart meters AS THEY ARE are simply a waste of effort, resources and VAST amounts of money with added built in privacy issues.

 

 

 

 

If there was a vote to

* spend 12 billion pounds on something to save you taking a meter reading once a month/quarter,

or

* build 6 geothermal power stations and make darn good starts on a couple of MASSIVE tidal bay power stations

- I know which I would vote for.

 

 

 

(and I know thats gov policy not you malc)

 

 

Note CFLs and leds often have crappy power factors.

[ploddertom]

I note what you have said Malc and yes I do have my business energy with yourselves.

I was bombarded with letters & cards telling me my meter was to be declared obsolete and had to arrange having a Smart Meter fitted.

 

Downside is I need my electric on during the day as that is when I see my customers and thought should be given to doing the work out of hours.

For me the customer there is no benefit bar submitting a meter reading once per month.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Edited December 27, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[king12345]

I'd rather burn WOOD to generate electricity than have a smart meter fitted.

Electricity companies allowed to change everything they want remotely and charge accordingly???

They'll have to kill me first.

[Old Cogger]

standing charges ( for them to know what to charge? = well what other company can charge a charge to see what they need to charge), = smart meter (Government roll out we are told means no standing charge) of course they will concoct a reason, sooner public ownership the better all these mills around our shores etc we shall be sailing off to the moon, nonsense use

[E.ON Company Rep: Malc]

So what are the benefits to the customer Malc?

Well ... Apart from not having to (of course they should though) check the meter readings

... then submit them once a month or so, as I do.

 

I'll acknowledge in advance that they can more easily see how much the meter is reporting them as using, ... which a none smart meter monitor I was given 'free by a power company many years ago also does.

Other than that, they dont tell you whats using or how to reduce it do they?

 

Effectively - You are using some electricity/gas - go sort it?

 

 

 

The supplier can cut them off - justified or not (home monitor will help with that - it will show no usage if its got a battery or just be off - like the lights

 

The supplier apparently can change the tariff without notice - as reported on these forums. Does the home monitor show when a suppliers done that? Or do you just have to figure it out the old way?

 

Making changing suppliers easier is a no go as often as not they will go dumb, despite using the airwaves and that impact on your wifi router etc.

 

 

So what are some real benefits to the customer if any Malc?

(other than assisting risky to health and wealth and well-being 'just trust us' bone idleness?)

 

Hello tobyjugg2 and thank you for your questions.

 

Totally appreciate you take your own meter readings regularly so don't see remote reading as a benefit. Regrettably this isn't the case overall. One of the biggest issues we face is estimated bills. These aren't good for the customer or the supplier and smart meters help keep bills accurate so customers only pay for what they use. They're of particular value for customers with disabilities who struggle to read their meters.

 

Accurate charges will also help take away the shock of large balances following estimated bills. In turn, this will help reduce the amount of debt faced by both the customer and us.

 

The more accurate billing is generally, the more able suppliers are to gauge how much energy they need to buy to meet predicted future demand. As energy is usually bought in advance, this will help suppliers balance the amount bought with the amount sold and help lessen the impact of a volatile wholesale market. This is better for everyone as it'll help increase price stability.

 

For savvy customers like yourself, I can see why you regard the In-Home Displays we provide with the meters as of little use. Again, not everyone is as savvy. The monitors are aimed at raising awareness so more customers follow your path and understand what they're using and how they use it. You're right, smart meters by themselves won't save customers money. It's through this raised awareness, based on real time energy use information, that will help customers save money by saving energy. For instance, budgets can be set and alerts will let customers know when they've reached them. This keeps them aware of the ongoing situation rather than face a surprise when they receive their quarterly bill.

 

The displays help customers see when their tariffs are coming to an end too. This will help alert them to the need to change tariff or supplier so they don't default to a more expensive product. The meter won't change their tariff. It'll let them know when they need to start looking at what's available.

 

Smart meters also let us know when faults arise so we can proactively fix problems and lessen the impact on customers. The meters have undergone rigorous testing and comply with EU safety, health and environmental requirements.

 

I agree, the roll-out hasn't gone smoothly and we've faced many demanding challenges. Not least, the loss of smart features when a customer changes supplier. As I posted earlier, we've started fitting the latest SMETS2 meters and next year will begin upgrading the previously supplied SMETS1 meters so they're managed in the same way as SMETS2. This will mean these smart meters won't go dumb following a change of supplier. This is only one of the developments we're working on. As the roll-out continues we, like the other suppliers, will look to refine the technology to better suit a changing energy market. It's an ongoing project that's developing and advancing all the time.

 

As above, as you're on top of your energy usage, I understand why you see little benefit in smart meters. For our wider customer base, they provide opportunities to become more savvy and to offset some of the difficulties they might've come across previously. At the end of the day, as I mentioned in my first post on this thread, smart meters are optional and customers are free to turn them down. Having all the information will, hopefully, help them decide.

 

Hope this goes some way towards answering your questions tobyjugg2. Let me know if I've missed anything as happy to help.

 

Malc

[E.ON Company Rep: Malc]

Perhaps add some honest real world benefits to the customer in the letter?

 

 

 

Test em by listing here beforehand

We're waiting ....

 

Agree tobyjugg2. I've suggested this to management. Something along the lines of what I posted earlier although somewhat briefer.

 

Thanks for the suggestion and have a good weekend.

 

Malc

[E.ON Company Rep: Malc]

I note what you have said Malc and yes I do have my business energy with yourselves. I was bombarded with letters & cards telling me my meter was to be declared obsolete and had to arrange having a Smart Meter fitted. Downside is I need my electric on during the day as that is when I see my customers and thought should be given to doing the work out of hours. For me the customer there is no benefit bar submitting a meter reading once per month.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

Hello ploddertom and thanks for having your business energy with us.

 

As with residential customers, smart meters are optional and you can refuse our offers to fit them.

 

I do appreciate your business needs you to be available to suit your customers. If you were to decide to go with smart meters at a future date, your electricity will need to be off for around half an hour. The complete installation takes around one hour to complete. We’re keen to minimise any disruption to your business and will work with you to this end should you wish to book an appointment at a later date. At the end of the day, it's down to you and we're happy to work with you whatever you decide.

 

Thanks again for your custom ploddertom and have a good weekend.

 

Malc

[tobyjugg2]

Smart meters also let us know when faults arise so we can proactively fix problems and lessen the impact on customers. The meters have undergone rigorous testing and comply with EU safety, health and environmental requirements.

 

A very well presented reply malc...

 

and Interesting, I hadn't thought of that bit above and certainly should have

 

I assume that is by the meter no longer reporting to you? or is there a 'low voltage' report

... and you can feed any awol smart meter locations into the fault location software to identify where the fault probably is, the probable original of which software you would have inherited through Pgen ...

Is that still manually done as where customers call in saying they have lost power or is it automatic from the smart meter system nowadays? I would hope it has moved on considerably in the last 30 years.

 

 

Not a lot of use if the customers have chosen just monthly updates though - or do you cheat on that, or is it simply customers dont know LOL

But goodish point

 

 

Highly critical report from the spending watchdog though reported very significant over-spend expected, to NOT meet targets ...

[tobyjugg2]

"Originally Ministers had said the total cost would be £11bn, or £374 per household, paid for by consumers through higher energy bills."

 

However an (projected) extra £3bn cost would mean an extra £93 charge on each household,

 

 

"As many as 70 per cent of the 12.5 million smart meters installed so far will go ‘dumb’ if an energy customer switches supplier"

 

 

So already up to 14 billion pounds these smart meters are projected to cost

 

What a damned waste of 14 billion pounds of energy customers money (whether you want them or not)

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/nov/23/smart-meters-rollout-labelled-a-fiasco-as-consumers-face-extra-500m-bill

"National Audit Office says that with 39m meters still to be replaced, government has no chance of hitting 2020 deadline"

 

 

https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2018/11/23/smart-meter-roll-out-could-cost-households-an-extra-100/

[king12345]

Estimated bills are good for the provider as they always estimate in excess.

They keep our money without paying us any interest.

We are talking millions, not pennies, so the statement from Eon rep is incorrect.

[tobyjugg2]

Mainly Correct

I find EON to be one of the better ones I've sampled in this regard, especially compared to others like Npower who were nothing short of abusive and obnoxious. No real complaints from me in that regard.

 

BUT I found EDF to be head and shoulders above all the rest with regard to getting the billing right and refunding credit balances and reducing DD amounts automatically (as well as reasonably increasing them)

 

Do need to consider that you really need to stay with a company more than a year for them to get it right, but they really shouldn't be running up large credit balances of more than 2-3 months payments MAX at the start of winter except in truly exception circumstances. Any that do should have utterly unarguable reasons.

A credit balance in summer running to a small debit in winter should be quite normal.

 

Any that run customers at significant credit balances from the start should be penalised

 

... and Npower should not be in business IMO.

 

 

Of course, when a customer has a smart meter ... there is no excuse whatsoever.

Edited December 27, 2018 by dx100uk
quote

[ploddertom]

ther than one of these types of meters which seem to do XXXXXX all except meter readings they appear to have missed the boat to try and incorporate something similar to what Hive etc can let you do.

[amigaos]

I have worked in the I.T sector and have some concerns regarding smart meters, particularly if or when the data servers are hacked and criminals obtain information, such as when very low energy use occurs and tie this up with the property being empty.

I also wonder if using an electronic device outside a property and applying Fourier transform might achieve the same result

[tobyjugg2]

I have worked in the I.T sector and have some concerns regarding smart meters, particularly if or when the data servers are hacked and criminals obtain information

 

I think Npower just get access by default ...

God knows who else.

[topcat1802]

A couple of points that seem to have been overlooked with smart meters:

 

1. They are advertising that smart meters will save energy, perhaps somebody could tell me how this will happen. At the moment I have a normal meter, and lets say I need to use 10Kw/h per day. I have a smart meter installed I am still going to use 10Kw/h per day, all I have done is change the meter. So where is this miraculous saving I am going to make?

 

2. When everybody has a smart meter installed, I can just see the energy suppliers, rubbing their hands with glee, as they suddenly decide to implement 'on demand' charging. So when Coronation Street finishes and everyone goes to makes a cup of tea, suddenly the charge goes up from 15p per unit to 55p per unit. And believe me it will happen eventually.

[Old Cogger]

1... those who are in the know state about £11 per years average saving?

 

2. Standing charge does not withdrawn if a smart meter fitted????

 

3. do not forget Big Brother Has been with us for decades

[E.ON Company Rep: Malc]

A couple of points that seem to have been overlooked with smart meters:

 

1. They are advertising that smart meters will save energy, perhaps somebody could tell me how this will happen. At the moment I have a normal meter, and lets say I need to use 10Kw/h per day. I have a smart meter installed I am still going to use 10Kw/h per day, all I have done is change the meter. So where is this miraculous saving I am going to make?

 

2. When everybody has a smart meter installed, I can just see the energy suppliers, rubbing their hands with glee, as they suddenly decide to implement 'on demand' charging. So when Coronation Street finishes and everyone goes to makes a cup of tea, suddenly the charge goes up from 15p per unit to 55p per unit. And believe me it will happen eventually.

 

Hello topcat1802 and you're right. Smart meters by themselves won't save consumers energy and money.

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread (post #30 - 23 Nov 18), it's through raised awareness that savings can be made. Many people remain unaware of how much energy they're using. Smart meters, plus the monitors that come with them, will help highlight their usage so they can see where they might be able to cut back and budget more effectively. Similarly, reducing the number of estimated bills will help with budgeting.

 

Totally appreciate, if you're on top of the usage and already budget effectively, smart meters don't seem to offer many benefits. Regrettably, there are many consumers who aren't so clued up.

 

On time of use tariffs. Apart from the existing Economy 7/Economy 10 set-ups, we've no current plans to introduce this type of tariff. I can't speak for other suppliers though.

 

Malc

[tobyjugg2]

 

On time of use tariffs. Apart from the existing Economy 7/Economy 10 set-ups, we've no current plans to introduce this type of tariff. I can't speak for other suppliers though.

 

Malc

 

Malc, Surely you mean there are none of those type of tariffs offered at the moment

 

Anyone with links to the industry knows that time of use and just in time charging is planned and the industry goal.

 

Thank God the incompetent rollout of incompatible meters (at consumer expense) which will require replacing (again at Consumer cost) has slowed it down. ... Bargain at 11 billion pound plus - NOT.

 

 

On a very relevant side note

EON is seemingly still the leading light bad boy of smart meter threat'O'grams in the industry

Even your latest 'no more SVR tariff if you have a smart meter' is a turd dressed up as a cake to sidestep the expected regulations isn't it?

 

 

 

Had many customers insist that dumb smart meters are removed yet after believing they HAD to have their meter replaced due to those letters or your telephone ops?

 

 

 

Oh - and Economy 7 apparently requires about 30-40% of your usage off peak to be worth considering nowadays.

If spreading use to low usage times was really important - there's your real opportunity - so clearly it isnt.

[tobyjugg2]

Just imagine an advert

Have a free smart meter and everything you use between 12 midnight and 5 am is 20% off whatever your tariff is, everything else at whatever your normal tariff is.

 

rather than

Hey you we are installing a smart meter

the government says you must

else you will pay double

It will give you free money

believe us its true

 

 

 

My options actually do

* Give free money

* Incentivise off peak usage without having to work out if its actually worthwhile let alone going to cost you

- even economy 7 doesn't do that.

[tobyjugg2]

Malc, Surely you mean there are none of those type of tariffs offered at the moment

.

 

Correction

Malc, Surely you mean there are none of those type of tariffs offered by EON (and most) at the moment

[tobyjugg2]

For info (first one is well worth a look for anyone)

 

https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2017/1/10/the-first-time-of-use-tariff-in-the-uk-will-it-save-users-money

 

 

"Very roughly, a typical household taking the new Green Energy package will pay about £570 for electricity compared to about £580 for ... the cheapest mainstream supplier at the moment"

 

"Very gradually, new technologies such as smart meters are making it possible for electricity retailers to introduce ‘time of use’ (ToU) pricing for homes and small businesses, helping to bring prices closer to costs."

 

 

 

https://www.gocompare.com/gas-and-electricity/time-of-use-tariffs/

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/gas/retail-market/market-review-and-reform/smarter-markets-programme

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications-and-updates/investigating-potential-impacts-time-use-tariffs-domestic-electricity-customers-smarter-markets-programme

 

 

https://theenergyst.com/eon-to-end-standard-variable-tariffs-for-customers-that-agree-to-a-smart-meter/

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-4946078/Eon-fire-smart-meter-bullying.html

 

 

 

Did you know...?

 

 

• Smart meters should help record customer usage in a more in-depth and accurate manner and speed up the process of reporting this usage back
  

 

 

 

"Dynamic tariffs have even been proposed, something that could see energy prices changing at any time with customers alerted by warnings such as text messages"

perhaps they send you a message, at work, where you cant use your phone, saying 'in 30 mins your tariff will be 8 quid a kw instead of the off peak lower charge 2 you expect ....

 

 

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/pros-and-cons-of-smart-meters-1182648

 

Advantages for Electric Companies

 

 

 

• Eliminates manual monthly meter readings
  
• Monitors the electric system much more quickly
  
• Provides real-time data that is useful ........
  
• Enables dynamic pricing, which raises or lowers the cost of electricity based on demand
  

 

• Avoids the capital expense of building new power plants (but only with dynamic pricing/dynamic disconnection implemented)
  
• Helps to optimize income with existing resources (but only with dynamic pricing/dynamic disconnection implemented)
  
• Makes it possible to use power resources more efficiently (but only with dynamic pricing/dynamic disconnection implemented)
  

 

 

Advantages for Users of Electricity

 

** After the electric company has fully installed its advanced metering infrastructure, smart meters offer the following benefits to electricity customers ***:

 

 

• Far greater (and more detailed) feedback regarding energy use (for suppliers YES - but for users realistically unlikely - and certainly little more than you can get with 'dumb' monitors)
  
• Eliminates manual monthly meter readings
  
  
• Enable consumers to adjust their habits in order to lower electricity bills
  
• Reduces the number of blackouts and system-wide electricity failures (but only with dynamic pricing driving changed usage/dynamic disconnection ('planned' blackouts) implemented - aka MORE blackouts)
  

 

 

 

 

https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy/news/smart-meters-not-needed-after-all-for-european-power-grid/

 

"There are other more efficient ways than smart meters to help develop intelligent power grids, said industry delegates at the annual convention of Europe’s electricity association Eurelectric, held in Vilnius"

[E.ON Company Rep: Malc]

Hello tobyjugg2 and a Happy New Year.

 

That's right, to confirm my earlier post, apart from our Economy 7 and Economy 10 products we're not currently offering any other time of use tariffs.

 

On the letters, as promised (post #24 - 21 Nov 18), I'm continuing to feedback these and similar comments to senior management. Changes have already been made with others in the pipeline and more to come.

 

Many thanks for your input tobyjugg2.

 

Malc

[hightail]

My aunt's house has a smart meter - fitted by the current supplier so sense says they should have accurate data and would tailor her monthly payment to her actual usage. Why then do I have to go through the annual fight to get hundreds of pounds repaid to her?

[tobyjugg2]

On the letters, as promised (post #24 - 21 Nov 18), I'm continuing to feedback these and similar comments to senior management. Changes have already been made with others in the pipeline and more to come.

 

Malc

 

What changes would they be Malc?

 

 

Test em by listing here beforehand

We're waiting ....

 

and still waiting ....

 

 

 

 

 

My aunt's house has a smart meter - fitted by the current supplier so sense says they should have accurate data and would tailor her monthly payment to her actual usage.

 

Why then do I have to go through the annual fight to get hundreds of pounds repaid to her?

 

Is that with EON hightail?

[E.ON Company Rep: Malc]

My aunt's house has a smart meter - fitted by the current supplier so sense says they should have accurate data and would tailor her monthly payment to her actual usage. Why then do I have to go through the annual fight to get hundreds of pounds repaid to her?

 

Is your aunt with us hightail?

 

Malc