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Will Goodfellow

Council tax debt - who is responsible to pay

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I would not like other people to think that just because a wife or husband owes a particular item that it cannot be seized because IT CAN.

 

 

No it can't. It must be jointly owned by the wife and husband, a marriage does not mean that all possessions become jointly owned.

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but ctax is joint doesn't matter if they are not named on the demand, adult that lives there...


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Obviously where joint and several liability for a debt exists it does not matter whether goods are jointly owned or not. Where joint and several liability does not exist for a debt, goods belonging to a spouse are not automatically considered to be jointly owned.

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But for ctax it is..so your post 9 is wrong.

 

Just because an adult living in the same property is not named on the ctax bill it does not mean they are not jointy liable..


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But for ctax it is..so your post 9 is wrong.

 

 

It's not wrong because the statement I replied to was a general statement and did not mention council tax or joint and several liability at all.

 

 

 

It is your post, number 2, which is wrong. It jumps to conclusions with no exploration at all.

 

 

 

Just because an adult living in the same property is not named on the ctax bill it does not mean they are not jointy liable..

 

 

And just because another adult lives in the same property as another adult does not mean they are jointly liable for a council tax debt either.

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I suggest you read here about ctax debts.


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No it can't. It must be jointly owned by the wife and husband, a marriage does not mean that all possessions become jointly owned.

 

 

Yes it does. Your finances are jointly entwined.

You actually form that contract when you say with all my worldly goods I endow. It also means debts.

Its made very clear in council tax legislation, the taking control of goods act and numerous court cases.

Unless you have a court ordered legal financial seperation whilst your in the process of a divorce the only seperation of finances happens when you get your decree absolute

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Where in council tax legislation, the taking control of goods regulations or numerous court cases does it state that once married all goods become jointly owned by spouses?

Edited by dx100uk
quote

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Take the advice given by others, dont take it, its no bother to me.

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If all assets are jointly owned by spouses, why did the bailiffs unclamp the OP's wife's car?

 

She wasn't liable for the council tax but according to you because they are married the car is jointly owned so is fair game for seizure, right?

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https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?490598-Council-tax-debt-equita-bailiffs-clamped-Mrs-car&p=5157778#post5157778

because she is not registered for voters etc at that address and doesnt live there

now go play elsewhere please this is disrupting the OP's thread.


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A person does not have to be registered to vote at an address to be liable for council tax.

 

 

 

I am no "playing" as you put it, there have been a lot of incorrect claims on this thread which I was addressing.

 

 

 


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In other words, you can't back up your claims.

 

HI

 

The council; tax regulations make it clear that a joint liability exists in regards of CT. However as far as the liability order is concerned the only persons liable or the debt(under that order) are the persons named on it.

 

However when the enforcement under schedule 12 commences the rules under that schedule apply. If you look up definition of goods under definitions, it also includes someone who has "an interest", in the goods goods of the other party may be taken.

 

(2)

In this Schedule—

(a)

references to goods of the debtor or another person are references to goods in which the debtor or that person has an interest, but


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The problem with seizing goods like this, is that they are regarded as co-owned goods after auction and as such get the value of their interest first before anyone else is paid. This often leaves nothing for the creditor and apart from nuisance value is of little value.( part 50)


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"just because another adult lives in the same property as another adult does not mean they are jointly liable for a council tax debt" is what I wrote. And that is the case, not all adults are liable to pay council tax even where they live in the same property, full-time students are not liable for example.

 

If two adults live together, one is a full-time student and one works full-time, only the person working full-time is liable. The adult working full time will be eligible for a 25% single person discount. There are a number of other scenarios in which that is the case. I am well aware of joint and several liability and when it arises.

 

It is siplistic to state that where adults live together they are jointly liable for council tax.

 

 

Schedule 12 states “interest” means a beneficial interest.

 

Which means any goods in which a debtor has a beneficial interest are subject to the warrant of control, that covers jointly owned goods. And is also the argument bailiffs use to seize vehicles on hire purchase, as where there is significant equity in an HP vehicle, that may be considered a beneficial interest.

 

Because two people are married does not mean that all goods become jointly owned nor does it mean there is a beneficial interest in each others goods. Also it does not meant that all finances are "jointly entwined" either.

 

Insolvency is the perfect example of that where one person in a married couple is insolvent but the other person isn't. In fact, it is impossible to make a joint insolvency application for any insolvency options which would not be the case if all finances were "jointly entwined".

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So you are saying two married people living in the same property do not have a joint interest in their goods(furniture tv etc). All it takes is for the debtor to be one of those people.

 

Now doesn't it.

 

The EA can only take goods of the debtor.

 

(a)

references to goods of the debtor or another person are references to goods in which the debtor or that person has an interest,

 

Really no need to complicate matters further

 

 

There seems to be an endemic problem regarding the separation of legislation which applies before enforcement and the TCE which applies during.


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You actually form that contract when you say with all my worldly goods I endow.

 

That cannot be true.

 

Firstly marriage is not a contract as meant in contract law and the commitments made to each other in the ceremony are not enforceable in the courts. So the words, when used, are a religious duty not a legal one.

 

The words you quote are only said in Church of England marriages and then only if the 1662 Book of Common Prayer is used. They are not in most modern versions of the prayer book.

 

Civil marriages and partnerships do not require any such words.

 

So even if the words did mean what you claim there's no way of knowing which couples had made the commitment and which hadn't.

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So you are saying two married people living in the same property do not have a joint interest in their goods(furniture tv etc).

 

 

Yes. Because two people are married and living together does not mean they have a beneficial interest in the goods the other person owns.

 

 

 

As an example, a married couple exist, and they both own cars. They each saved for a car from their own wages, and paid for the car from their own bank account which is in the sole name of the car owner.

 

 

 

The car belongs to the person who bought the car, it is not jointly owned.

 

 

The husband has a credit card debt in his sole name and a CCJ, the bailiffs visit. There is no joint and several liability for the debt. The bailiff's clamp the wife's car. She proves she bought the car using a bank account in her sole name in to which her wages are paid, shows the receipt for the car and the bank statement, all in her name.

 

 

 

Are you saying that the bailiffs can legally seize the car and auction it off to pay the husband's debt because he has a 'beneficial interest'? Because that is not the case, the husband has no beneficial interest and the car is not jointly owned.

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We also should remember that the EA only has to believe that there is an interest, in the case of a married couple I think it would be difficult to prove he was at fault to hold such a belief.

 

I also think that most marriages and partnerships contribute to jointly held property one way or another, not that this would be tested.


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You are trying to dig too deep here, it is a simple , everything depends on the circumstances, the bailiffs initial reaction will be that jointly used property is indicative of a joint interest, this seems reasonable. If the debtor wants to challenge they can later in court, the EA will not be sanctioned for the belief.

 

No one said anything about beneficial interest? Just common sense.

 

If someone wants to argue that there live partner has no interest in there joint goods, please go ahead.

 

Also again you are talking abput who is responsible for CT. That is not the issue, as far as the TCEA is concerned, it is about what is in the regs say, it may be anything a fine for instance. The TCEA is about enforcement, …...as repeatedly said :)


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a discussion thread is now created

 

please post here not on the OP's thread now


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I also think that most marriages and partnerships contribute to jointly held property one way or another, not that this would be tested.

 

 

I agree, and where goods are jointly owned there is a beneficial interest but marriage does not mean that all goods are jointly owned between spouses.

 

 

All the non-debtor party whose goods were seized would need to do is show evidence that the goods aren't jointly owned but are solely owned and the goods should be released.

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