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Rj44

PPM PCN 4.11AM!! - residential parking space - no permit displayed

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Hi, (I hope i am posting this in the correct space and apologies to admins if im not)

 

I appreciate any help this forum/users can offer in advance.

 

I live in a new development (I rent been here for 4/5 years), I have an allocated space as per my tenancy agreement.

 

Recently (September) the management company introduced a new scheme by appointmenting P&P Management Ltd to regulate the parking of our development.

 

However the problem here is, instead of regulating the cars that park outside of bays (they don't have the legal right because the road is owned by the council) they now ticket cars in the private bays that don't display a permit issued by P&P Management Ltd.

 

We received a letter informing us that unless we send back the display permit and send an email to opt out we would be accepting any rules set by P&P. Like most, work, life etc got in the way and i forgot to send back the permit and write an email.

 

Low and behold i eventually received a ticket. I explained that I posted the permit back (must of got lost in the post....) and explained I didnt realise had to email as well. Nevertheless i also explained that I didnt give the management company nor the P&P to regulate my space, neither did my landlady. I followed their appeals process and they have written back to say in short, I owe them £60 going up to £100 if its not paid by a certain date.

 

Ultimately what im trying to understand is can they chase me, if they can what are the chance of the courts finding this case in their favour.

 

I've read that a Penalty Charge Notice is different from a Parking Charge Notice (Which is what they issued me with).

 

I'm happy to tell them with a few choice words where they can go and see them in court, but I also want to know if its worth just suffering the £60 and them now understanding and knowing I no longer participate in the scheme (not that I did anyways) and the situation being done with.

 

Appreciate this is long winded but thanks again in advance for your help.

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please complete this:

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket

 

its in your lease, they'd lose hands down...rights of supremacy of contract..

 

dx


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Hi,

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I didn't receive a Penalty Charge it was a Parking Charge, should I still fill out the form and post it here?

 

Apologies if this is a stupid questions, forums etc are new to me!

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we know that....

copy and fill out the relevant q's to here and answer each q at its end.[windscreen or ANPR ]


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

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WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

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Hi,

The link provided is for private parking tickets.

 

 

Without seeing any tickets which I would hope you will upload in pdf format it's hard to say what is likely to happen. I'm also assuming this was a windscreen ticket.

 

 

Was the company employed without any consultation?

 

 

As it stands, you have supremacy of contract as you have an allocated space within your lease. You do not have to show any permits whatsoever if you wanted to.

 

 

This parking company is a one man band and are quite likely to take court action (249 cases so far this year)

 

 

You could appeal to them if you wish but as they are members of the IPC, they will likely reject your appeal and after that it's pointless appealing further to the IAS as they are an 'old boys club' who are on the side of the parking company.

 

 

I would suggest that you appeal the first time and when they reject you, write back to them stating that should they wish to take court action, you will defend in full. Don't involve the IPC at all.

 

 

Hold fire for other opinions and if you can, let us see the ticket (suitably redacted of personal details and bar codes/reference numbers)


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as your parking space is allocated to the property PPM have no authority to trespass on your vehicle to slap their ticket on it.

They may well say that they sent you a letter but that has as much value as me sending you a letter saying you have to sell your car to me for a £1 or i will sue. ( needless to say there is case law on this so they are stuffed)

 

Now they are there because the management co have invited them to be there.

They cant make any money out of people parking on the road so rely on inventing false reasons to chisel the residents out of cash.

the problem is that many will pay up and thus encourage this stupidity when a group action telling the to get lost would have been the end of it ( if everyone returned the permit they wouldnt have a chace at inventing a reason to be there)

 

Now, as they have issued a ticket for your vehicle you can wait and see what they do next and if it isnt the correct procedure they are stuffed by the law on private parkingas well as contract law.

 

Chances of court finding in their favour?

almost zero but that wont stop them trying because 85% of all court claims go undefended so it is a numbers game for them.

Edited by dx100uk
spacing

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Hi thanks for your replies, I will upload all documents tomorrow.

 

Thanks again,

RJ

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For a windscreen ticket (Notice To Driver) please answer the following questions....

 

1 The date of infringement? 12/10/2018 @ 04:11

 

2 Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] - Yes

 

have you received a Notice To Keeper? (NTK) [must be received by you between 29-56 days]

what date is on it

Did the NTK provide photographic evidence? No

 

3 Did the NTK mention Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) [Y/N?]

 

4 If you appealed after receiving the NTK,

did the parking company give you any information regarding the further appeals process?

[it is well known that parking companies will reject any appeal whatever the circumstances]

 

5 Who is the parking company? Parking & Property Management Ltd

 

6. where exactly [Carpark name and town] did you park? - In my private space, allocated to the flat I rent.

 

 

I hope I have filled that all in correctly.

 

Thanks again in advance for any help.

Parking Charge.pdf

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1st page is a bit too pixelated..

 

04:11!!

are there photos of that?


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Does this work better?

 

Yes there is photos, they've literally photoed my whole car, plus other peoples and also the inside of my car....

Parking Charge Front.pdf

Parking Charge Back.pdf

Edited by Rj44

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We received a letter informing us that unless we send back the display permit and send an email to opt out we would be accepting any rules set by P&P. Like most, work, life etc got in the way and i forgot to send back the permit and write an email.

 

I don't understand what happened. Send back what permit? Can you clarify please.

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They first made contact by sending a letter to all residents of the scheme basically saying in short 'return the permit attached and send an email to opt out of the scheme'. I sent the permit they provided back but they reckon they never received. I was naive enough to send normal 1st class with no proof of tracking.

 

I didn't email until I had received the above PCN. I will attach an image of the letter tomorrow.

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thread title updated


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

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1. Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

2. Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

3. Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

4. The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

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I'm even more confused now!

 

The Managing Agent sent all residents a parking permit and said that if you didn't want to take part in their parking permit scheme you should return it and confirm you wanted to opt out.

 

So if they had received the permit back from you and the email confirming your opt out what then did they claim would have been the position? You could use the allocated space without a permit? You couldn't use the space at all? They'd take the space away?

 

Did the permit they sent you have your car reg number on it? (Presumably not, how would they know what it was?). The number of the allocated space? Or just the name of the development?

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All of which doesn't matter..

Supremacy of contract over rules the lot


PLEASE DONT HIT QUOTE IF THE LAST POST IS THE ONE YOU ARE REPLYING TOO.

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WE CAN'T GIVE ADVICE BY PM - IF YOU SEND ME A LINK TO YOUR THREAD - I WILL BE HAPPY TO OFFER HELP THERE

1. Single Premium PPI Q&A Read Here

2. Reclaim mis-sold PPI Read Here

3. Reclaim Bank Account, Loan & Credit Card Charges Read Here

4. The CAG Interest Tutorial Read Here

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I would imagine from the opt out would mean that the parking space would not be covered so if an unauthorised car parked there, the parking company would take no action.

 

 

I find it disingenuous of PPM to say they didn't receive the permit back. That is the answer most would give when they did get the letter but don't want to acknowledge it. My opinion only. Why would any company accept an opt out when it is a potential money earner from it.

 

 

The parking scheme is supposed deter irresponsible parking, not the lawfully held parking space.

 

 

 

You are under no obligation ever to display due to primacy of contract. You were there before they were!


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Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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2 things, you rejected ther invite to be bound by their terms and also you have the right to park where you did without interference by them.

 

Now normally we would advise against appealing the receipt of a ticket slapped on a car but as this is about YOUR space you can show that you have tried to be reasonable but the parking co arent interested in your rights, they need to rob and cheat people to stay in business.

 

saying they did nt get the permit back cuts no ice with the law, it was deemed delivered and anyways,they have no rights to demand anything from you.

 

If the permit is supposedly their property they should ahve provided a prepaid envelope for its return or allowed you to glue it to the forehead of the idiot at the managing agents that signed them up in the first place.

 

Now the MA and the parking co will claim that they have done this with good intentions, protecting your parking space from random motorists but the reality is that they know this isnt where the money is.

 

If you sent a letter with the returned permt this would be helpful for burying them later but not essential.

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PPM lost when they tried court in similar circumstances details on Parking Prankster blog

 

 

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/03/parking-and-property-management-ltd.html

  • Haha 1

The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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PPM lost when they tried court in similar circumstances details on Parking Prankster blog

 

 

http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2017/03/parking-and-property-management-ltd.html

 

 

Almost exact circumstances so thanks for the link.


If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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Rj44, every time someone posts on here about parking schemes being imposed where a leaseholder has an allocated space lots of people pop up claiming that the scheme can't be introduced because of so-called "supremacy of contract".

 

But this is only partly true. In fact it's common for leases to say that use of the allocated space is subject to any regulations that the freeholder/lessor/management company might make for the use of the parking spaces.

 

If the lease for your development says something on those lines the management company may have the power to introduce parking permit schemes. Although if they have it was curious way to go about it, hence my earlier question. I appreciate you may have no idea what the lease say as you are not the leaseholder, your landlady is.

 

Of course even if such a clause is in the lease it won't automatically mean the PPC can do what they like. There are other things that have to be got right as well, not least the procedure for introducing it, the signage, how they issued the PCN etc.

 

They often get that wrong. And taking a case to court requires the PPC to prove in writing that it has the authority from the freeholder/leaseholder to issue PCNs and they often fail to do that either.

 

But you cannot say that if you have an allocated space under the lease the management company can never introduce a parking permit scheme. The actual wording of the lease has to be taken into account. Yes the wording of the lease is paramount, but it might allow the management company to introduce a permit scheme.

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Hi all,

 

Thanks again for all responding, finding your feedback very helpful.

 

see attached the letter initially sent by PPM.

 

Am I right to assume and ignore all further correspondence from them as they don't have a leg to stand on?

 

Does it matter that I rent the property? My landlady hasn't responded or accepted their terms either, im the only one whose has interaction with them and have lived there since the property was built. (approx 4/5years)

 

I have a copy of the permit and again will upload in due course.

Parking Letter.pdf

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Well PPM claim that covenants in the lease permit the managing agent to introduce this scheme. Whether that's true would have to be established.

 

 

Why did you send the permit back and tell them you wanted to opt out of the scheme? They sent you a free permit and said if you don't display it you will get a PCN. I can't see what the disadvantage to you would have been to simply stick it in your car and avoid the potential hassle you now have.

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I own more than one car, and the inconvenience of taking a permit out every time I or my partner or family/friends park in my space or even having to buy additional permits (£10 a pop) also didn't seem fair.

 

As I mentioned, I have lived there a number of years and never had an issue with someone parking in my space, its always been (and the reason they introduced the PPM to begin with) the people who park opposite the spaces which turned out to be council owned land that they couldn't regulate.

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Ethel if OP or randomer had parked a pushbike in the bay bet PPM would have ticketed it. One thing is sure it's a minefield and untangling the legalese and other bits of a lease agreement is time consuming.

 

 

Without seeing the Lease we can't say definitively whether anything in there can be subordinate to a PPC.

 

 

And a PPC lost a court case on virtually identical facts.


The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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well, you opted out so they cant look after your health and safety whilst you are parked in your own space. If you think they could ensure your health and safety if only you had a permit you live in crazyworld along with the managing agents but that is by the by.

 

When you became a tenant you take on all of your landlords rights and responsibilities (with some exceptions).

 

contracts by lethargy arent fair or enforceable (or even completed) contracts as there must be acceptance so there reversal of the requirement that you must agree to something is unlawful.

 

Very old case law on it about a man who wanted to buy a horse an said if he didnt hear back by noon he would assume offer accepted.

Felthouse V Bindley 1862

 

So ignore the idiots unless they decide they want to lose some money on a court case. If they continue to ticket you can go after them for harassment as they have now got a letter saying they arent welcome to trespass on your space.

 

Again there are some good examples of this such as Davey v UKPC ( see both that and UKPC v Davey for full story)

Edited by dx100uk
Spacing

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