How to obtain invoices/receipts from letting agency

[RCBanks]

I and two others moved out of a house at the beginning of September and having waited over 28 days for the return of our deposit (£1000), visited the letting agency (18 October) to be told we could expect it shortly. Whilst there I asked how much I could expect to receive and the chap I spoke to checked the files and informed me it would be £823.74. Deductions were for £95 +VAT admin and £55 + VAT spot cleaning. The admin fee is clearly stated in the contract and we were not going to dispute the cleaning. [i do have some basic photos of the house after we left it and it was in a very clean/tidy state but perhaps cleaning two areas of carpet was justified.]

 

Three days later a cheque (dated 19 October) arrived for £718 with a cleaning deduction that was now £145 + VAT. [This cheque has not been paid into an account and remains in our possession]. I went to their office with a letter and asked for receipts/invoices etc to clear up the confusion. I watched as the man who runs the place fumbled around in a few files before claiming the bookkeeper who is only in the office two days a week, must have them with her. He also (apparently) made unsuccessful telephone calls to the bookkeeper and the cleaning company before saying he would send me what I asked for.

 

Two weeks later (9 November), we had received nothing and I visited an advice centre where the advisor called the agents on my behalf. She was told that a letter had been sent the previous day addressing the matter but again nothing was received. Either that was a lie, an error due to incompetence, or it was lost in the post.

 

We are now pondering our next step. From our point of view the agency has caused confusion by initially saying one thing and then giving us something else and we want that discrepancy cleared up with invoices/receipts. A £145 +VAT cleaning charge does sound too much to us but at this stage we’re more concerned by their apparent reluctance to provide documents that should be in their possession. There might be something improper going on but have been careful not to make any accusations. We have simply asked to know how our money was spent. Therefore, in our next letter, what should we be quoting to ensure that we look informed and they get the message that they can’t just fob us off like this? Thanks for your help.

[RCBanks]

Anybody?

 

I've found the following two pages of advice but neither makes it clear that the letting agency is legally obliged to provide me with a full breakdown of costs and documentary evidence for cleaning at the end of the tenancy.

 

= = = =

If your landlord refuses to return the deposit when you leave you should be told the reasons for this. Ask for a breakdown of the costs your landlord incurred.

Decide whether you agree with the costs. If you are prepared to accept some of the costs and not others write back and say so. If not, you could try to negotiate or take your landlord to court.

 

From: Shelter: What deposits cover

 

= = = =

 

And:

• Irrespective of how a deposit has been held, make sure that communications are conducted promptly, regularly, politely and fairly, as appropriate, during negotiations after the end of the tenancy. Confirm pertinent details in writing and provide copies of relevant significant information and supporting documentation.

 

•

Ensure that any instructions to contractors/suppliers and, subsequently, contractors/suppliers quotes/receipts provide a sufficiently detailed breakdown to clarify precisely what work is to be/was carried out in which areas of a property. It should then be simple for all parties to assess and understand what portion of the work and costs can lawfully be allocated to the tenants in the light of the inventory checkout report or tenancy agreement obligations. This helps avoid accusations of betterment against the landlord.

 

 

From:

http://www.arla.co.uk/download/dealing_with_deps_disps_dams.pdf

 

= = =

 

Would a Landlord and Tenancy Act include a passage stating that the Letting Agent is legally obliged to pass on invoices/receipts relating to deductions made from the deposit? So far I haven't found anything so please help. In my next letter to them I would like to be able to quote the law so they are in no position to ignore me further.

 

 

[powelll]

Hiya, I'm not a tenancy specialist but do have quite a good knowledge on this and as far as I can see there is not anything specific in any Acts to cover this. They simply state that if there is a dispute e.g. about the costs deducted then the ex-tenant can pursue this via the County Court

[demon_x_slash]

If it gets as far as court, the judge will think it very unreasonable that the agents cannot provide proof of work done. If they produce invoices/receipts in ourt that weren't made available to you, the judge will want a grovelling explanation from them as to why these weren't made available to you. Either way, it looks bad on them. The deposit is yours; they have to prove damage/cleaning cost that much to carry out, which means a paper trail...

[RCBanks]

Thanks.

So far we're not really disputing anything because we don't have the full facts to dispute over. This situation arose because the letting agency told us the deduction from the deposit for cleaning would be £55 but that had become £145 by the next day.

Due to the discrepancy we asked for clarification (in writing) with supporting documentary evidence. In other words, we just want to know that such cleaning actually took place. It's the fact that they said they would do that but haven't and have also apparently lied about sending us a letter that us causing us concern at the this stage.

 

As it happens we think that £145 is excessive but they're reluctant to give us any info to go on.

 

We think that an appropriately worded letter is the next step. Does anyone think that we are at the stage of needing to consider County Court action? Would that be worth it?

[demon_x_slash]

I think ARLA states that 28 days is a reasonable time within which to return a deposit. How long has it been...beginning of September, we're on the 24th November now. Yes, you should be considering it. Write a preliminary letter to them advising that you consider the state of affairs to be unacceptable, that the deposit is the property of the tenant, not the landlord/agency, and you expect its return with [documented] deductions for cleaning/admin within 14 days. Any cleaning without an invoice/receipt will be considered spurious and therefore non-deductable.

See what they say to that. If they're still not forthcoming, then it's a Letter Before Action, their official 'warning' that you will take them to court if they do not act to resolve your situation, with another 14 days to resolve.

[RCBanks]

Thanks, again. I shall include that in the next letter.

 

So let's hypothesise for a moment that we do contemplate going to court. The facts are these:

 

- A cheque was received [about 40 days after vacation of the property] for £718.

- This included a deduction for admin costs [this is clearly stated in the tenancy contract so I don't know if we can dispute anything here].

- There was another deduction for cleaning costs. Initially we were told it would be for £55 + VAT but it then became £145 + VAT.

- Having allowed them plenty of time, no supporting documentation has been received despite the agency's assurance it would be.

 

Given that a cheque for £718 was already received, if we DO go to court, what would be claiming? I'm guessing it would be £145 +VAT plus interest at 8% for everyday after the date at which the deposit was returned to the point at which we start the action. Would that be right?

 

One other thing. We haven't paid in the cheque that we do have for fear of appearing to agree with the amount returned. Is that the best course of action?

 

Thanks, again and best wishes.

[Jhawc24]

Personally I would bank the cheque (it is your money!) and write to state that you will be pursuing the oustanding amount unless they provide an invoice. Make sure you send them a prelim letter giving 14 days, followed by an LBA letter. Send all mail recorded.

 

Any court claim needs to be sent to your landlord so make sure he gets copies of all the letters you send.

 

Not sure if you can claim back the admin fee if it is in your contract.

 

If it goes to court then claim the outstanding amount plus 8% interest from the date your money should have been returned (if no date then 28 days after end of tenancy).

 

Before you start court claim send them a copy of the N1 and give them another 5/7 days. This will demonstrate that you have been reasonable throughout and given them plenty of time to return your money.

 

Good luck, Joan.

[MrShed]

No receipts, no deductions. Simple as. You have a legal right to the original receipts.

 

Be careful about banking the cheque in case it states in the letter it came with that iti s a full and final settlement, or something to that effect.

[RCBanks]

The cheque didn't arrive with anything that says it's a final settlement but we'll be cautious.

 

My housemates and I will work on drafting our next letter and follow the course of action suggested in this thread. Thanks again for the advice. With regard to having a legal right to receipts, is there anything we should be quoting to make the case?

 

Best wishes.

[MrShed]

I do not believe the receipts issue is statute law, but common law, so nothing you can quote. But, it is definitely in common law that someone can not ubiquitously(sorry bad spelling!) charge for a service then not provide a receipt for said service.

[bankoff]

Hi

 

I think in view of the time lapse I would be inclined to threaten them with the VAT office, they cannot get money from you with VAT charged on it without a VAT invoice. They may be very interested in this one. Are they registered for VAT, they should be!

 

Go to the office and state you are going to the VAT office to ask them what to do! This might just rattle their cage sufficiently.

 

If this agent is doing his own cleaning, he should be providing invoices.

 

If an outside contractor is doing it, then they should provide the invoice.

 

Stick with it, don't let them get away with it.

 

I was a bookkeeper for an agent, there is no need for this kind of shoddy behaviour from them.

 

No good going to ARLA unless they are a member.

 

Best of luck

[RCBanks]

Thank you for that, Bankoff - that's very useful to know. I don't think that we'll use the VAT angle just yet but we'll keep that up our sleeve.

One of my housemates has been away so we haven't sent the reminder letter, yet, but we will do this week.

 

I don't think they do their own cleaning because they mentioned the name of a firm but we haven't found them listed in any directory. The more I think about it, the more I think something fishy is going on. We went there on 18 October to ask about the money and one of them went over to a file to check and he gave us a figure. The cheque written the next day by the man who runs the place was for £105 less. What happened in those 24hrs? What was the first men checking when he went over to his files? What was he quoting?

 

One other thing - I was going to quote from ARLA guidelines in the next letter. Is there a way to find out if they're members without asking them directly?

 

Thanks.

[Jhawc24]

You can check here to see if they are a member of eg ARLA:

Association of Residential Letting Agents or NAEA:NAEA The National Association of Estate Agents

 

The Arla guidelines are recommendations for all landlords and tenants, they don't have to be members. Membership is voluntary if they are members then you can make a complaint through the organisation.

 

Regards, Joan.

[RCBanks]

Happy new year, everyone. It's been a while, but here's an update:

 

I sent a second request letter to them by recorded delivery on 06 December but no-one was in to sign for it and no-one called Royal Mail for it. It was subsequently returned to me at the start of this month.

 

This morning I hand delivered a letter attached and received a telephone call from the guy in charge this afternoon. He claims to have sent us a letter in response to our first visit at the end of October. He also said that the documention we requested is available in his office for us to see and has been for months. He invited us to go in and see for ourselves [he claimed not to have the time to respond in writing]. He also said yet again that the total amount for cleaning was above what we had been charged [of course, contractually we can only be charged for any cleaning for anything considered over and above fair wear and tear]. He seemed quite irritated and presumably had not read the letter very closely because he mentioned in a superior tone that our 'threat' to report them to ARLA would be no good because 'we aren't members'. In fact, our letter says no such thing and merely quotes from the guidelines which represent good practice for everyone, members or not.

 

My housemate and I are planning to go to their office on Wednesday morning. We assume that we will be shown something whether authentic or not. Any advice you might have for when we go is very gratefully received. What should we look for? What questions should we ask?

 

P.S. With regard to the VAT issue mentioned by bankoff, I assume that the VAT charges were originally made by the cleaning company and the letting agency are simply passing totla charges on to us. If so, does that leave any avenues to explore? Cheers.

[Jhawc24]

Strange? If he's got the documentation there that you requested then why can't he send you a copy. He doesn't have to write you a letter? It seems a reasonable request for him to provide you with a copy. Yet you and housemate are expected to take the time out to go to his office to peruse the document?!! Until he provides you with a copy, and you accept this charge, then the amount is still in dispute.

[RCBanks]

Thanks, Joan.

Yes it is a strange set of affairs. He claims to have written to us shortly after my first meeting with him at the end of October. If he did, the letter wet missing. I will ask to see a copy and I fully expect he won't be able to produce it.

 

In addition to this, when we didn't receive a response within 14 days to that first letter, a phonecall was made on my behalf by someone at an advice centre I went to. She spoke to another person in their office who claimed he had written to us the day before and the matter was closed. When the advisor asked him to detail what was in that letter, he refused saying he was too busy. He had no idea I was present when that call was made and no letter was ever received. I'm sure that if I ask to see that letter they won't have anything to show me. To have two letters go missing in the post sounds careless even for Royal Mail.

 

Anyway, on account of our reminder letter being strongly worded he did call within a few hours and was very irritated. Apparently he 'doesn't have time' to write letters (as if we do) and that if we want to take things further he can refer us to someone else (his solicitors I presume). I would rather have his response in writing but my housemate and I will go there in person.

 

We are expecting to see a cleaning bill for greater than the £145+VAT that was deducted because as they keep saying to us without producing the documents, the landlord wanted all the carpets cleaned and we were charged for only two of them. Personally we don't think the carpets were dirty beyond fair wear and tear of a year but but let's see the documents first.

 

I believe they're very 'chummy' with the cleaners they use so I'm not sure how we will be able to determine the veracity of the invoices/receipts they show us.

[gemmabe]

I used to work for a cleaning company, and one of our contracts was for a letting agency. The owners told me how the letting agency would pay for cleaning, no expenses spared, then simply take the money out of the poor previous tenant's deposit. I am not saying this has happened in this case, but be very, very wary. My aunt also once moved out of a property, her and the family spent hours cleaning it to a condition that was improved from the one they had first moved into. They only got back a fraction of their deposit.

[RCBanks]

I appreciate the warning, gemmabe.

 

I have finally got a copy of the invoice for cleaning. The total amount was for £225 of which £80 was paid by the landlord and £145 was passed to me and my housemates. The invoice istself is a generic-type that you might be able to buy in an office supplies store. All of the fields are completed by hand and there is no company logo or anything like that.

 

For now I have two concerns:

 

1. I have a company name and an address (no tel no.) for the people who did the cleaning. So far I have not been able to find this company in any local directory or via a google search. The closest I have come is to find a company specialising in refrigeration that has an online listing giving the same address but this might be outdated information. I'll try to go there myself to take a look but surely there must be a register that I can search through to check that such a firm exists but I have no idea where to look. Any suggestions are welcome.

 

2. It isn't entirely clear who has charged VAT. If it was the cleaning company then why is the total given only '£225' and not '£225+VAT'? It might just be an oversight, I suppose. In any case, this company would have to registered for VAT, right?. Is there a way I can check online? or do I have to contact my nearest tax office?

Just to check, the letting agency couldn't have added the VAT charge themselves could they? A cleaning company is probably subject to VAT but I ask because the only note on the invoice about the VAT is in a text box added by the agency.

[spunkeyrich]

The Agent should have an invoice from the cleaning company and on that invoice there should be a VAT registered Number. If it is Small firm that has a turnover of approxiamatly £65,000 or less then they may not be registered. But there sure should be an invoice.

 

rich

[RCBanks]

Thanks, Rich. Sorry if I am being dim but just to clarify:

 

A small firm with a turnover under £65,000 might not be VAT registered but is still liable for VAT and that VAT charge needs to show up on an invoice even though ther might not be VAT registered number on it. Is that right?

 

I've looked at some of the HM Revenues and Customs web pages but the relevant info has probably eluded me.

[spunkeyrich]

If they are VAT registered then they will charge VAT. If they are not VAT registered they cannot charge you VAT.

 

Some firms may charge a fee INCLUDING vat but it is against the VAT Rules to do it that way. you can always tell if an invoice has a VAT resgistered number on the invoice somewhere. no number then they cant charge vat. hope thats more helpgull for you.

 

cheers

 

rich

[RCBanks]

Yes, very helpful. Thank you.

It could be that everything is above board but I'll certainly be checking.