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    • Well done on your victory!  👏   You must have a magic touch, it's extremely rare that the PPCs accept an appeal.
    • Court hearing today. WON on all counts of claim. The win though is not the interesting bit, but the ‘why’ is really useful. We were allocated 90 minutes but it took two hours by telephone . The defense were represented but I failed to note whether by a solicitor, barrister or other advocate.   As soon as the judge finished the introductions and before he had time to pass the time over to me to explain my case, the defense interrupted and asked the claim be struck out. He then spent the next 40 minutes discussing with the judge that I had failed to properly serve my bundle upon which I intended to rely. The judge asked me to explain and I said I had served the bundle to them and the court 3 days before the deadline, by signed for post with a tracking number to the address named in the summons being the Royal Mail Head Office in London. I said it was a bit rich that they were making this request when they had failed to serve me and the court with their bundle within the deadline and that I had only just received it. They quoted a certain principle of law (which I failed to write down) which explained that service of documents must be made to the address which either party may request service to be made. They claimed that six months earlier when they lodged their defense to my summons, the covering letter had been sent from their Sheffield office and it constituted the address for future service of documents. I of course had no idea of such a requirement and said that a simple letter heading on a piece of correspondence was not the same as a formal sentence in a letter requesting such future service. It gave the judge some concern but he decided to park the issue and allow the hearing to continue.   I was able to explain my case for the £50 compensation for the lost parcel using the evidence from the defense bundle referencing the Overseas Post Scheme. It was all straight forward. I explained the facts and let them speak for themselves. I then moved on to the delayed Special Delivery items. This is where the fun began because I had to argue against their terms and conditions. I used the defense bundle referencing the UK Post Scheme. I quoted from various clauses which explained the rules relating to claims. That ALL delay claims must be made within 3 months, then that Special Delivery was actually 14 days so not 3 months after all, then another clause which confirmed the deadline was 3 months for all delay claims. I quoted further that these were “common terms” and that some services (Special Delivery was one) had additional terms which were called “specific terms”. Another clause stated that where a conflict arises between common and specific terms, then specific terms took priority. So I turned to the Special Delivery section to quote the specific terms as these would have priority. There was only one term that referenced claims. It simply said If we do not succeed in attempting to deliver by this time (being the next day) we will refund your postage. I used this single phrase to take priority over the 3 months  or 14 day deadline mentioned in the common terms. I discussed how the various clauses conflicted with themselves as if the clauses themselves did not know what the deadlines were and how ambiguous and confusing it was.   The time was then past to the defense and he started to argue there was no contract nor liability in tort (a substantial portion of their written defense document and bundle discussed this argument). It made me smile because I was ready for that. The judge though was ahead of the game and (especially because 40 minutes had been wasted at the beginning) he did not want to hear of it. After about one minute, he stopped the defense by saying exactly what I was preparing to say. Simply that I was not suing under contract or tort but under the conditions of the various postal schemes for which they were liable. He asked the defense to answer my claims. The defense then prevaricated trying to argue the clause that distinctly mentioned the 14 day time limit within which to make a claim for delay (which of course it did) ( as an aside, most people might accept that deadline and not bother to pursue a claim). He had nothing to add about the lost parcel.   Time had run out, we had no questioning and the judge said he was summing up. He was quite happy I had served my documents sufficiently well and took the view that the defense had fallen foul of the court order so he was cancelling out the question about valid service. He had no difficulty in accepting the claim that the lost parcel was valid and awarded me the £50 compensation. He then spoke at longer length about the delay claims and the conflict in the clauses. (at this point I had no idea which way this bit would go). Then, he spoke of how a business such as Royal Mail should not be accepting clauses in their contracts which were clearly inconsistant. (that’s when I started to relax), (and then the best takeaway of the hearing), He said that common law provides in the event of a standard contract if there is any ambiguity, the interpretation should be judged against the person drafting the contract. He called it Contra Proferendem. (I had no idea of that concept but had effectively explained it anyway). I was awarded the whole claim plus costs. The defense asked for permission to appeal which was refused.    Remember the phrase “Contra Proferendem” . I shall be looking more into it. I am sure it will come in handy against any institution that have drafted contracts that cannot be individually negotiated. And will certainly be useful for a long while yet against Royal Mail et al.
    • The White House highlights the upcoming offer of free trips in the US by the ride-hailing firms. View the full article
    • Original loan was £5000 unsecured over 5 years, 28 payments remaining, he wanted to extend it back up to 5 year.........the bank offered him £6700 to clear his credit card and the bank loan, £135 per month from the original figure of £121    One debt of two years old and one debt of 15 months        
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    • Ebay Packlink and Hermes - destroyed item as it was "damaged". https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/430396-ebay-packlink-and-hermes-destroyed-item-as-it-was-damaged/&do=findComment&comment=5087347
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    • I sent in the bailiffs to the BBC. They collected £350. It made me smile.
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    • Hi @BankFodder
      Sorry for only updating you now, but after your guidance with submitting the claim it was pretty straight forward and I didn't want to unnecessarily waste your time. Especially with this guide you wrote here, so many thanks for that
      So I issued the claim on day 15 and they requested more time to respond.
      They took until the last day to respond and denied the claim, unsurprisingly saying my contract was with Packlink and not with them.
       
      I opted for mediation, and it played out very similarly to other people's experiences.
       
      In the first call I outlined my case, and I referred to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 as the reason to why I do in fact have a contract with them. 
       
      In the second call the mediator came back with an offer of the full amount of the phone and postage £146.93, but not the court costs. I said I was not willing to accept this and the mediator came across as a bit irritated that I would not accept this and said I should be flexible. I insisted that the law was on my side and I was willing to take them to court. The mediator went back to Hermes with what I said.
       
      In the third call the mediator said that they would offer the full amount. However, he said that Hermes still thought that I should have taken the case against Packlink instead, and that they would try to recover the court costs themselves from Packlink.
       
      To be fair to them, if Packlink wasn't based in Spain I would've made the claim against them instead. But since they are overseas and the law lets me take action against Hermes directly, it's the best way of trying to recover the money.
       
      So this is a great win. Thank you so much for your help and all of the resources available on this site. It has helped me so much especially as someone who does not know anything about making money claims.
       
      Many thanks, stay safe and have a good Christmas!
       
       
        • Thanks
    • Hermes and mediation hints. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/428981-hermes-and-mediation-hints/&do=findComment&comment=5080003
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Just to update this:

 

We have been told we will be served with a section 21 today so it doesn't give us two months notice and it looks like it's invalid! We were never given the gas safety, how to rent and EPC certificate. They sent them on the 18th October with a letter informing us the tenancy was ending. We also don't have smoke alarms on every floor of our home which I believe is another requirement?

 

So we understand that we cant be served with a section 8 until we're in 2 months rent arrears and the section 21 is now invalid. They want us out on 21st December. There's a bit of us that just wants to go and leave the mess behind however it seems like we're in a good position to negotiate now?

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It can’t be less than 2 months and does not mean they can turf you out at the end of the notice, they would then have to go to court. Get advise on how valid the notice. If it is invalid I would wait to go to court then they would have to serve another notice and another eight week wait.

 

As for negotiating, you tried that and you went from the end of January with that month free to having to be out on the 21st of December. Either he is not to be messed with or negotiation is not your strong point.

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It can’t be less than 2 months and does not mean they can turf you out at the end of the notice, they would then have to go to court. Get advise on how valid the notice. If it is invalid I would wait to go to court then they would have to serve another notice and another eight week wait.

 

As for negotiating, you tried that and you went from the end of January with that month free to having to be out on the 21st of December. Either he is not to be messed with or negotiation is not your strong point.

 

Thanks for your advice but I really don't understand why you keep being so negative towards me! You're not our landlord are you haha!? :p

 

It definitely is invalid. My point is, the notice cannot at any point be valid as we weren't given the gas safety certificate, the EPC certificate or the how to rent guide. The agency sent them last month with the end of tenancy letter. It is my understanding that they HAVE to be given to tenants prior to moving in. How can he apply for another possession order as he can't change the fact that this process wasn't followed?

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Which bit is negative, did you not have the offer on the table of leaving at the end of January and then you did something that made the landlord retract that offer and want you out...do you class that as being successful? I feel you may think that you are in some kind of position to negotiate. You were and then now you are not. The LL has served you with the required documents and that is all he is required to do BEFORE he serves you a section 21. It will not void one served after the required documents.

 

It is a shame you see my advice as being negative, I wish you well.

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Thanks for your advice but I really don't understand why you keep being so negative towards me! You're not our landlord are you haha!? :p

 

It definitely is invalid. My point is, the notice cannot at any point be valid as we weren't given the gas safety certificate, the EPC certificate or the how to rent guide. The agency sent them last month with the end of tenancy letter. It is my understanding that they HAVE to be given to tenants prior to moving in. How can he apply for another possession order as he can't change the fact that this process wasn't followed?

 

 

 

 

If your so convinced you right about the s21 or anything else, go to CAB or a solicitor get them to check and stop disagreeing with everyone on CAG and on another forum.

 

https://tinyurl.com/yae3zzry

 

 

....

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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You can vacate T on last day of Fixed Term, without Notice.

Beyond that, you are req'd to give min 1 month NTQ to expire at end of next valid Rent period, and liable for rent until then.

LL can serve s8 for a discretionary g10 or 11, even if the Mandatory g8 (2 month rent owing) is not fulfilled.

Negotiate early Surrender with LL asap.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi

 

Just to update this, and ask advice on the next steps (hopefully I won't get shouted at again in here ;)

 

We didn't move out on the 21st December as we were unable to find anywhere right before Christmas. The landlady came to the house the day after the tenancy expired and screamed abuse at me, calling me a mad woman and a liar before trying to barge in to the house with her dogs, wow, merry Christmas haha. I get the feeling the agency may have made us promises without telling them, as she genuinely didn't seem to have any idea that there was a compensation offer made or that we had been offered to stay in January. Or, she's a very good liar.

 

The last we heard from the agency was us asking them to stick to their offer to help us find somewhere else to live, they didn't reply to that. Nor did anyone contact us to arrange moving out and handing over keys and the inspection. Its pretty amazing that the landlady turned up expecting us to be gone without a single conversation with her or the agency but hey ho.

 

So we've asked for a reference in return for us leaving ASAP but of course the landlord won't give us that. The agency have said they will give us a reference if we leave this weekend, which we can't do, and also that they 'are obliged to give an honest reference', I said fine, does that mean you will be honest about the reasons we have complained and have rent arrears.

 

We've been advised that the landlord is applying for an accelerated possession order, which we expected, we again offered to leave ASAP in return for a reference to save him paying the fee but apparently he's already started the process.

 

So we knew he'd take this course of action and we really just want to move on now but two questions 1) will we have to pay his court costs even though we have evidence of him offering to let us stay in January? And also, because we've offered to go to save him applying to court in return for a reference?

 

I can't believe after the hellish experience we've had as tenants, we're being treated like the bad guys to be honest. The list of issues is just insane 1) moved in to a filthy house which we had to pay to have professional cleaned, 2) the landlord let himself in twice, once whilst I was in the shower 3) 6 months of horrific noise 7 days a week, 4) offered compensation then this was revoked 5) offered help to find somewhere else to live by the agency which was revoked, 5) screamed at by the landlady 6) now court. 7) lied to about the length of tenancy and the house placed for sale when we took the house on the basis we could have it for 2 years. Honestly can't believe that the agency won't just do the right thing and accept that the landlord isn't always right, and actually look after their tenants instead of just the landlords.

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The agency doesn't get paid by tenants but by landlords.

Effectively they are LL agents and so they will always side with them, not the tenants.

Go through the motions, you should have enough time to find another place.

I have never seen an eviction order done and dusted in a week.

At best it would take a couple of months until you're kicked out.

From the sound of it, they gave you all required documents along with the notice, so section 21 would be valid.

Regarding the deposit not in the DPS, that's a different matter that you should either use as leverage or sue the LL which would be ordered to pay you 3 times the deposit.

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The agency doesn't get paid by tenants but by landlords.

Effectively they are LL agents and so they will always side with them, not the tenants.

Go through the motions, you should have enough time to find another place.

I have never seen an eviction order done and dusted in a week.

At best it would take a couple of months until you're kicked out.

From the sound of it, they gave you all required documents along with the notice, so section 21 would be valid.

Regarding the deposit not in the DPS, that's a different matter that you should either use as leverage or sue the LL which would be ordered to pay you 3 times the deposit.

 

Sorry the deposit is fine I think. The issues with the paperwork was them not giving us the correct stuff when we moved in, they only sent it with the section 21 which I thought would make it invalid? Also, given they told us we could stay until end of January on 8th November, doesn't that void the section 21 that was sent in October, and also give us a defence as to why we didn't move out on 21st December? We were still waiting for a response from the agent etc.

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Yes, that's what you would argue if it gets to court.

Section 21 notice is still valid, even if extended by mutual agreement like in this case.

Anyhow, you're still in the property, so stay put and find another place as soon as you can.

Let the LL know that you'll be out soon, maybe giving them a date would be best.

Regarding the LL walking into your home uninvited, that's a big no no.

If it happens again, call the police.

In the mean time, if I were you I would change the lock.

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Yes, that's what you would argue if it gets to court.

Section 21 notice is still valid, even if extended by mutual agreement like in this case.

Anyhow, you're still in the property, so stay put and find another place as soon as you can.

Let the LL know that you'll be out soon, maybe giving them a date would be best.

Regarding the LL walking into your home uninvited, that's a big no no.

If it happens again, call the police.

In the mean time, if I were you I would change the lock.

 

It's crossed our minds haha! Thanks for your help.

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...and also give us a defence as to why we didn't move out on 21st December?

 

You don't need a defence as to why you didn't move out on the 21st December, that was the deadline for the notice to seek possession. Now that deadline has passed, the landlord can apply to the court for a warrant of possession.

 

If that happens, you will receive an eviction notice and will have to move out by the date on the notice otherwise bailiffs can force entry to remove you from the premises.

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How many user names do you use

 

nicknock, nikkikitch and NickNack81 on another forum...

Please use the quote system, So everyone will know what your referring too, thank you ...

 

 

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How many user names do you use

 

nicknock, nikkikitch and NickNack81 on another forum...

 

Yes a few as I've not been able to remember logins and changed computers. Why, is that an issue haha!?

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If you lose your log in details, you just need to contact admin rather than create a new account.

 

Site rules allow two IDs.

 

HB

 

Thanks, there was also an issue with privacy. One of the usernames was known by someone I was asking advice about so I created another.

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