Trying to collect judgement but bailiffs unsuccesful

[randm]

The advice given on here has always made it clear things have to be done quickly so, near the end of this and it is frustrating to have all the delays.

 

Doesn't matter I will sit tight and try to get this closed off.

 

V. frustrating how the courts work.

[BankFodder]

Don't worry, the advice is still here. I'm afraid that I've been rather occupied elsewhere but I've been keeping an eye on what's happening here.

 

There really isn't much you can do other than to wait for things take their course. I'm afraid this is the world of the courts at this level. I think things might have gone a bit differently if the applications had been drafted and tendered in a different way. I think that even if you made a formal application to vary an order now, it wouldn't make a load of difference and there is still a big risk it wouldn't get to the judge's file in time.

 

I think all you can do is to bide your time. I seem to think that you were promised some kind of response by the end of this week. Is that correct? If nothing is heard by the middle of next week then certainly we can put a letter together that I really don't think that given the way things have gone that it is now worth spending the money on an application notice. I think a more formal request for costs et cetera should have been put in at an earlier time afraid that this opportunity has passed.

 

You aren't being ignored. Don't worry

[randm]

Hi there

 

OK, so up until today, it has simply been about the appellant getting extensions. Apparently emails have been going back and forth from the judge to the appellant about getting the transcript. The reason they told the Judge that they have had trouble calling in to get payment into the transcript company, however I have never had an issue contacting them also sent in proof that they had not attempted to call or email (I called and confirmed this with the transcript company) but it did not seem to matter.

 

To be honest anything I have sent in, done or said to this point has not had any consideration according to the orders of judgement that come out.

 

So...

 

Today we have a little more news and a bit more advice would be welcomed:

 

News is that they have another extension to the 23rd March, the reason given on the order is that the "judgement" part of the transcript is missing. I called in to the court staff and they said they do not know the reason for that.

 

They also sent in their bundle, however I have not received a copy and its a week since the last deadline.

 

At this point I do not know what to do about the bundle, is it best leaving it or do I need to get it? I read that I can send in a Form N244 and the costs of that can be reimbursed on this kind of thing by the appellant.

[BankFodder]

I don't see that making a formal application notice will have any effect. I don't expect it will hurry things along at all. I'm very surprised that the judge is so willing to go along with all this delay – but that really there isn't anything you can do.

 

However, I think you should write to the court/judge and complain that you haven't received a copy of the bundle. Point out that this is another deadline which appears to have been ignored by the appellant.

 

Do you know who it is that has transcribed the judgement? If you do then I would suggest getting hold of them and seeing whether you can get your own copy of the judgement – and you could also ask them why apparently part of the judgement is missing.

 

Are you receiving copies of the correspondence which has been sent to the court by the other side? If not then you should tell the court that you are not been copied in and you would like copies of everything they have received so far.

 

I'm very sorry because you have come here for clear advice but frankly I'm at a loss as to what to do and the best I can say is that you will have to grit your teeth and bear it. It really is all amazing.

 

I'm sure that this is all extremely frustrating. The County Court's system is in a mess – we all knew that – but I have to say I had no idea that it was in such a mess as this.

[randm]

Hi there

 

TY for the reply, yes it is a mess and this whole process from the original judgement has done nothing but kill my belief in our legal system. I m sat here after nearly 5 months since the hearing and am still out of pocket. To me something feels grossly wrong here as everyone I have spoken to has said that this amount of delay is exceptional, unyet I sit here, powerless to do a single thing while the other side continues to behave incorrectly, with apparently absolutely no punishment at all. I think I need to say this in the next letter I send to the judge. It is pretty abysmal.

 

Transcript company is Ubiqus, they either answer in 2 seconds or not at all. I have been holding for 25 mins and still on the phone now waiting!

[BankFodder]

Yes, I tried phoning them as well. They are completely in a mess. Their website has got broken links or links which go to the wrong place. The telephone number for the transcription services incorrect and you have to phone it and then get given the correct telephone number which then has the long wait. I sent them a tweet. It won't make any difference.

 

@UbiqusUKLtd your website gives wrong No.for transcription service. Website links to Twitter (goes to LinkedIn). Google link goes to error page. Eventually the correct transcription number so far has a 25 minute wait listening to classical music. Shambolic service

 

I should be moderate about what I wrote to the judge. I think you simply need to express the fact that you think that you are being made to suffer an injustice. It is clear that the appellants are litigating unreasonably and that this has been their pattern of litigation from the outset. You are still out of pocket and also you are being put to loss because of their unreasonable litigation. You would respectfully ask the judge exceptionally to make an order for costs in your favour despite the fact that this is a small claim. – I would then outline the reasonable costs which you have incurred – including the time that there delay has cost you.

 

I would also suggest that you respectfully invite the court – if it is minded to make any further extensions – to order them to pay money into court as a condition.

 

Point out also to the judge that you have received no copies of any transcript or any bundle and that once again they are breaching the deadlines that the court has been generous enough to extend them once again.

[randm]

Just a quick comment. Is this at risk of cheesing the judge off? I mean he must have read my previous letters which have all been along the same lines. Is this something that I really need to do just to fill the process from my side or could IU run the risk of peeving the judge off? I mean they are supposed to administer justice aren't they, they should not take anything personally right?

[randm]

So letter has gone in. I outlined the new points, made my case for "injustice" due to the time and litigation methods of the appellant and also put forward the recommendations WRT paying the funds in and costs etc. I am finding it increasingly hard to write these letters with 150% respect for the Judge but if he wants to administer justice based upon the side of bed he got out of that day and the fact some people may be a little more blunt than others then what can you do. It seems we are all already in slight disbelief at how this is going anyway, I have no faith at all that this will not go to Appeal to be honest. I smell something wrong with the whole thing and i'm not usually wrong about that.

 

I guess we'll see.

 

Quick question:

So right now I still do not have the appellants bundle. Do I ask for a copy of that or do I just leave it be and wait? I guess it would be nice to have it and I was wondering whether I should be making my comments on it

[BankFodder]

I agree with you – I'm in disbelief as to what is going on.

 

I certainly think that you should be writing for a copy of the bundle. Write a letter to the appellants and also write a letter to the court – if you haven't done so already – and tell them that so far you have not received any documentation from the appellant.

 

Send your letter to the appellants by recorded delivery.

[randm]

OK, that's all been done. I asked in an email sent to the 3 partners of the appellants company and I have just sent a copy of that to their address, DHL next business day signed for. I asked for anything relevant or being used and the bundle and transcript in an effort to help move things on.

[BankFodder]

Good. If they don't respond then I suppose it will just add to the picture which they are creating of the general lack of cooperation and unreasonable behaviour in litigation.

[randm]

Hi there

 

So, an update!

 

The appellants never got back to me, so as far as they're concerned I have not been sent anything at all.

 

I received a package form the courts today however which was a letter from the Judge just stating the process and how he understands my frustration but the process of the transcript is essential etc etc. It was quite nice to finally get something back.

 

Also the transcript, but in paper format (not electronic). Some emails etc from the appellant to the judge largely about why they have been late all the time with deadlines.

 

The bundle, or at least what I think is the bundle. It is 1 sheet of A4 with "Statement of case" with about 10 sheets of evidence that is from the original case largely. I think they have "new" terms and they have sent these in.

 

I don't know if this will be of any use now, i'm struggling to pick the case back up again, let alone you guys, however you can safely assume that there is nothing new in this, they are definitely trying to get a 2nd bite of the cherry. I will get that uploaded in the next post.

 

In the statement it also calls me a liar, quite literally. However they have actually gotten confused over the 2 items in questions. Probably down to sending their low level lakky to the original hearing and now wanting a 2nd bite of the cherry!!!

 

So, with the above in mind, I will ask questions in the next post

[randm]

Hi

 

here's the statement

 

My questions are now:

1. Should I write a response into the court and do I have to send this response to everyone?

2. Is this the only bundle they will have or can I expect something else from them. The deadline is today at 4pm (2.5 hours away).

 

3. Will it be appreciated if I point out places in the transcription where I am right etc etc?

 

4. Should I press for my fees once again

 

5. Should their statement really be pointing out specific details in the transcript etc and then questioning them. I mean if I were appealing, I would be referencing the transcript and stating what the issue was with it. They have not done any of that work at all. I am trying to assess the quality of their bundle here.

 

6. Can I ask for interest and any more costs?

 

Any help appreciated a always...nearly there!!!

Appellant_Appeal_Statement.pdf

[BankFodder]

Thanks. I think it's very unusual to get a message directly from the judge and so that is extremely encouraging. It suggests to me that if he finds against the appellants then he may be minded to make a reasonable order for costs against them.

 

How many pages is the transcript? Any chance of scanning it in PDF format.

 

I'd be very interested to see what they say about their "new terms". Are they saying that these new terms have been incorporated into their contract since the dispute began? That would be quite extraordinary and of course they would be unenforceable.

[BankFodder]

I don't think that I would bother the Judge too much more with additional information. However, I do think that I would make a fairly simple comment on the Statement of Case

 

Comment On the Appellant's Statement of Case

 

although it is true to say that the consignment did contain contained a component made of glass, it has no bearing on the damage which occurred to the printer which was a completely separate item. It is not correct to say that the printer was a glass item or a fragile or delicate item as contained in the list of restricted items in the appellant's terms and conditions.

 

More significantly, there has been no claim made in respect of the glass item inside the consignment. The the claim is only in respect of serious damage sustained by the printer and which was clearly the result of very substantial mishandling.

 

It is clear that the fact that the consignment included a glass item in no way contributed to the risk to the printer which was the main item inside the package. it is clear from the extent of damage to the printer that it had been subject to such traumatic handling that it would have sustained the serious damage regardless.

 

More generally, the claimant has not had the benefit of receiving the appellant's bundle or any other documentation and so has been unable to comment on any further arguments which the appellant has put forward.

 

The appellant has breached all protocols in respect of disclosing relevant information to the claimant

 

A copy of this has been sent to the appellant

 

Statement of truth

 

Signed

 

Date

 

Sorry, but what I've written above doesn't read very smoothly. It's a bit lumpy but I made it up as I went along. I'm sure you can see the point and I'm sure the judge will see the point.

 

I think you need to reinforce this as I would suggest that you get this off to the court as quickly as possible. Send a copy to the other side.

[randm]

That's fine, any help is appreciated. Just to bring you up to speed on the glass thing. There was a separate glass piece in the 2nd item (first item had no glass). This glass was broken, however it was neither part of the 3D printer per se...IE it was a bespoke add on I bought separately and the "printer" includes only a plastic version when new. It has never been claimed for and I have only ever asked for the 3D printer to be paid for. Glass is "restricted", not "prohibited", so I take the risk on it... I took the risk and it broke, I did send images of it because I thought that proved how badly handled the parcel was, however I have never claimed for the glass item at any time.

 

You, me, the Judge have all basically taken this stance on the original hearing and it was pretty much poo-poo'd as an argument by the original Judge. I am confused why the defendant is basically saying the same thing yet again, with no new evidence. They cannot seem to stop banging on about the glass!!!

 

I was told that the transcript is available in electronic form, I sent in an ex107 1.5 weeks ago, however the guy who handles these at the court is away until next Thursday. No-one else can deal with it.

 

The transcript is about 2 inches thick, i'm not kidding, it was nearly 5 hours worth in the end. I will wait for the electronic version and I am happy to send you that. I simply do not have enough time to scan in about 400 pages right now though.

 

I will get a response sent in and will copy the other side over the weekend.

[BankFodder]

I've amended the suggested comments above to reflect what you have said.

 

I'm afraid I've lost the thread on this a bit. Were both printers damaged? Were they packed separately?

[randm]

Yes, basically 3 items. One was lost and they did not contend that, only came back to me on that during the hearing!!

 

Then I sent a 3D printer which was damaged in transit. I have witness statements to prove the damage was made. The 2nd printer was identical but it just had an extra glass plate in it. This printer was also damaged.

[BankFodder]

Are they disputing the damage in the second printer then as well?

[randm]

Well, at the end of the day they have gotten their knickers in a twist here because in their appeal, they are mixing up the 2 printers. So printer 1 had no glass, I never said it had and by their own appeal, they are kind of relinquishing this one.

 

Printer 2 had glass in it, i also brought it back via another courier, which is what their "intervening" point is about. However you said and the judge concurred at the original hearing that this made no difference to the claim as it happened after the issue occurred. As I had a witness and proof in the way of photos, and the made a point about the fact their terms did not cover this anyway, how can they use this without discrediting me, my proof and my witnesses.

 

So the glass is only in this one printer.

 

To be honest I have been told by a partner her, that this appeal looks like they are just trying to get the cost down, rather than appealing against a decision. They will have to pay the costs anyway as the 3rd item in the claim that was just another item for £50 I also claimed for they did not defend. I cannot see how any of this is applicable to the first printer, and the 2nd printer WRT the glass, the intervening event and anything else has been considered by the judge already.

 

My concern is that the judge was simply wrong about this, but my research and you guys say otherwise.

[randm]

Something we have just found out is that they have now produced 2 of my original invoices from where I purchased the printers from. I think this is what they are using to try and get the pricing down, because I got a good deal on them, actually because I buy a lot of stuff from them. Question here is that the supplier has given them invoices that are nothing to do with them.

 

I also have a witness statement from this supplier who said they were deceived by the appellant into getting information about me but they later wrote a statement to put the record straight on how info was being twisted to reach a pricing for the printers. They basically want me to be paid based on refurbished prices.

 

It's all really weird.

[randm]

I have had the judges decision back and it is not clear cut. Here's the actual letter from the Judge.

 

My questions are:

 

1. The only place we talked about the amount of the award was in the judgement part of the hearing.

It does not make any sense that the judge is asking for more transcript because the was sent both parts.

 

2. Can I go for collection of the money now or do I have to wait 2 more months?

 

3. Surely if the appeal has failed, why is the Judge saying part of it can still be presented further? Seems really unfair.

 

Any help is appreciated as usual. At least we are making progress now!!!

Appeal_Decisioon.pdf

[BankFodder]

Well it looks very clearcut to me. The other side have not been permitted to appeal. However there is a proviso which exists to make sure that justice is fully done which is that they can ask for an oral hearing but they only have seven days from the date of service of the order.

 

The order is dated the ninth so service will be deemed, say, today – so they have seven days – next Thursday to indicate that they don't accept application for permission to appeal and they want it to be heard and to be able to give oral evidence.

Frankly it would be extraordinary if they wanted to do this. Apparently the way is open for them to continue to ask for permission to appeal against the trial judge's finding in respect of ground 4 but in order to do that they will have to you get hold of a transcript of the the remainder of the judgement as well - because it appears that they haven't supplied enough evidence to support their entire application.

 

I suppose you gathered all this anyway.

 

You may feel that it is unfair but the judge is attempting to be scrupulous. The appeal judge has made it very clear that he thinks that they are wasting their time. I'm afraid that you will have to wait until it is clear that the whole thing is over. Although you say that the appeal has failed, it seems that the judge has only considered the appeal on grounds one, two, and three. Ground 4 is still at large.

 

At the very least I think you can enjoy the delicious and excruciating agony that the other side are going through and the money that they have been spending on this botched attempt to deny you your rights under the contract.

 

Obviously these people have never heard that if you are in a hole then the best thing to do is to stop digging.

 

What you might usefully do is to wait until Monday week – then call the court and see if they have received anything in respect of an oral hearing. If they haven't then you might enjoy sending the other side a recorded delivery letter asking them whether they propose to continue with their appeal process. I suppose that they will probably not make any reply – but it will at least add a bit more in the paper trail for you.

 

I can't remember how much this is all for but I'm sure that it is more than £600 and so if I were you at the first opportunity I would contact HCEO and have the judgement transferred up to the High Court for a rapid and businesslike enforcement. That will add another between £1500 and £2000 to their bill.

[randm]

Hi There

 

TY for the reply. I agree with the 7 day thing, I understand that is the final part of the process and also how unlikely it should be to get that accepted, so that doesn't worry.

 

The most confusing thing is that the whole transcript has been sent in to the judge. He asked for the hearing and judgement and that has been sent in. This was in fact what all the delays were originally about. So I am confused as to why the judge is asking for more transcript and then giving them until 09/06 to provide it? The judgement was the only place where the award amount was discussed.

 

Ground 4 was them stating that the amount of the award was not correct. So they have somehow got original invoices from my supplier for what they believe is my 2 machines and they are using this to state that the award should be a lot lower. What they do not realise is that i'm not so sure that these are the invoices anyway and the pricing I got was also very low because I got a special deal due to other business I did with the supplier. Also does it not count that they have clearly been underhanded in obtaining these invoices from my supplier when they are effectively private between me and my supplier?

 

I am happy to spend whatever I need to get the highest level of collection service I can. However do I get this back from the other side?

[BankFodder]

HCEO collection will recover their fees from the other side if there is a successful collection. It will cost you about £66 for the transfer-up. You will get that back as well if the enforcement is successful. When you instruct HCEO to collect, check carefully that they are doing it on a no win no fee basis.

 

Have you informed the court that the price which you paid is a special reduced price and would not represent the replacement cost? Of course, if leave to appeal on that issue is withheld as well then the question will never come up.