CEL ANPR PCN Claimform - Croydon Poplar Walk car park.

[dx100uk]

just type no need for reply with quote

makes the thread twice as long to scroll thru...17 unnecessary quotes of previous posts removed.

 

you write to the court if you wish.

 

your defence is as post 39....

[ericsbrother]

if you have used mcol you need to send a separate letter to the court about their abuse of process as there isnt a place where you can do this online.

 

As this was part of an answer that states what you need to send to court it shouldnt be that confusing.

 

It may not get read until the time of the hearing but at least it will be there in the judges bundle.

 

Now if you had sent this to CEL what good would it do?

read everything carefully and dont make assumptions.

 

You wont be writing to CEL at all from now until you have to exchange documents and it is unlikley to actually get that far as I would bet on them not paying the allocation fee once you have submitted an outline defence.

 

If you are still unsure of what to say in that then we will offer a short version suitabel for your case that is similar to all of the others apart from saying the contrcat is with another party

 

also ask the DVLA who obtained your keeper details? This has to be doen in writing and soon as they l;ike to obfuscate on this as they are in big trouble over their lax quality control for access under KADOE contracts.

 

Now if starpark say you owe CEL for the breach who has the right to ask for your details as startpark have no contract to breach but CEL have no cause as no keeper liability can exist to an uninterested third party.

[alladin78]

I've submitted my defence (before the deadline), and emailed DVLA for the details of who requested my registration details and what reasonable cause they cited.

Thanks again.

[alladin78]

Hi

 

I've received the response from DVLA and a pack of papers from CEL.

I've attached both the DVLA and the CEL letters with personal info removed.

 

The CEL letter states the following:

We refer to your Subject Access request. Please find attached copies of all correspondence sent to you, including the images of your vehicle taken by our ANPR cameras. Please note that the requirements for disclosure under CPR 31 do not apply to claims on the small claims track such as this one (CPR 31.1(2)).

 

The DVLA letters states that

 

The DVLA considers the allegation that the terms and conditions of private parking as reasonable cause and has provided the data to allow the landowner and their agent to pursue their legal rights.

 

CEL made an electronic request which would've got an automatic response.

 

The following were in the pack from CEL (please let me know which of these you would need to see a copy of, and I can scan those as well)

 

 

1. the first PCN letter (I presume this is the NTK) dated 18/9/17 Amount says £100, but says reduced to £60.00 if paid within 14 days),
   
2. the second (reminder letter) dated 19/10/17 (£100),
   
3. ANPR photos of the car entering and exiting the car park,
   
4. CEL letter threatening to go to DCA dated 14/3/18 amount £140 (original charge £100 + additional costs)
   
5. ZZPS letter 1 - dated 19/4/18 (£140+£60)
   
6. ZZPS letter 2 - dated 4/5/18 (£140+£60) . this was followed by the letters from the solicitors QDR -there were a couple of these (but CEL have not included these).
   
7. CEL letter quoting "Pre Action Conduct and Protocol" for debt claims, then stating that if debt is not paid in 30 day they would issue CCJ, dated 24/8/18
   
8. Claim form
   

 

Q1. I still don't know who the owner of the car park is and whether they have a contract with CEL or Star park. What do I do now?

 

Q2. Why have not included the phone call if it was a SARs request?

 

Thanks for all your help in advance.

CEL CPR Response.pdf

DVLA response.pdf

Edited November 28, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[dx100uk]

the claim is not allocated to track yet so how can CEL state its small claims, they are only guessing

CPR 31:14 DOES apply

 

is the 1st letter entitled NTK and has 2 pix in/out ….time and dated

scan it up

you would of needed to have received this within 14 days of the 'offence' in sept..did you?

 

and the anpr pix please

[alladin78]

Hi @dx100uk,

The first letter does have pics in and out, but does not say 'Notice to Keeper' on it, it says 'Parking Charge Notice'. It is dated 18/09/17 and is within 14 days of incident (7/9/17).

I've attached the scanned docs as requested.

 

Thanks

PCN Letter1 NTK.pdf

ANPR pics.pdf

[ericsbrother]

ask croydon council planning deptwho owns the land or alternately ask the Valuations Agency. If you choose the latter ask about whether CEL or start park pay business rates on the land. The thought of a few extra quid will get croydon councils blood pumping

[alladin78]

Hi @ericsbrother

1. Is the first letter the NTK?

 

I've got a response for the letter I sent to County Court today stating point 3 as below; it basically says I need to apply for the claim to be struck out using the N244 application form (which they attached) or alternatively dispute the claim by filing a defence and /or counterclaim.

 

2. I've filed Defence - so do I need to submit this N244 form to strike out the claim?

----

The claimant has failed to follow the Civil Procedureicon rules by failing to issue a letter before actionicon and the claim is too vague to see what the claim is actually for.

 

The claimant has also failed to show who is issuing this claim as they have stated that CEL are the legal representative of the claimant but haven’t stated who that is when signing the form.

 

The defendant states that this is not an error but an abuse of process and therefore requests that the claim be summarily dismissed under CPR 3.4 and states that it is likely to fail anyway.

----

 

I've sent the email to the Croydon Valuations Agency last weekend - got an automatic response from them. But nothing answering my query yet. I've done a search on the Planning register and found an entry as attached, no history though. Also done a search on HMLR and I've not seen an entry for the actual car park - but could purchase a copy of the Plan and Registration for the title that I suspect is the property.

 

3. What is my next step once I get some information about the actual owner for this car park?

4. the letter from the County Court stating they confirm they've received my defence states that the claimant (CEL) need to respond in 28days. Will I get notified when this happens - and how (email/letter/MCOL update)?

 

Thanks again for all of yours and Dx's help.

[dx100uk]

I would assume the n244 attracts the £255 so don't do that

Just leave so it gets autostayed I doubt CEL will do anything now?

[ericsbrother]

dont pay for a strike out, just include a separate letter with anything you send to court and it will be added to the file. It may get read before a hearing and you get your way without having to attend anything. My CEL claim got to a case management hearing and they were given a real drubbing for a multitude of reasons, one being claiming solicitors costs for someone who wasnt a solicitor, hence me asking who signs their claim forms as Ashley hasnt given up on this attempt to diddle an extra cash amount out of peopel even though his last lawywer was struck off for allowing his name to be used in this way. Courts get wise to repeated abuses of process and some judges have grown intolerant to it so just write and hope. the worst that will happen is that it will get read as the first thing at a hearing and the CEKL will ahve to answer before they get to make their case.

 

also there is no Croydon Valuations Agency, it is a government agency. Croydon have a section dealing with business rates who have the same interests.

 

when you know who owns the land you will be able to state that you dotn belive that CEL have a contract with the landowner and therefore have no "locus standi" or right to make a claim. If they produce a contract then you go through it with a sine toothed comb as the parking sign say Star park, not CEL and it is unlikely the landowner has allowed this transfer of agency.

 

the court will write to you if CEL do pay up but keep an eye on your MCOL console regarding the time and what has happened. If they dotn pay up then you ask for the claim to be stayed (it will eventualy) but make the point that they do this all the time and it is an abuse of process by making untrue claims as a method of frightening peopel into aopying up rather than for the lawful recovery of mone actually owed.

Edited December 5, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[alladin78]

ok thanks @dxuk100 and @ericsbrother

I've checked my MCOL account and there has not been any update. As per the letter - the 28 days - is that 28 working days or calendar days? if its the latter then I should have an update by the end of this week I suspect.

[dx100uk]

you wont get any update its automatic.

[alladin78]

Help!!

I've received another letter N24 from the County Court.

I've redacted and attached it.

 

Its talking about the N180/N181.

I don't understand - it talks about a "Directions Questionnaire" that I needed to send?!

But I didn't receive any letter to that effect?!

 

Also the letter is dated 26/1/2019, and states that I have to respond on or before 7 days from service of the order.

I'm having a panic attack! please help! Thanks

 

attached now.

 

Just checked MCOL, and it states that DQ (Assume this is Directions Questionnaire) was sent on 19/12 as below.

DQ sent to you on 19/12/2018

DQ filed by claimant on 19/12/2018

 

I've been on holiday from 21/12, and returned on 5/1/19 but have not seen this letter in the post that accrued?!!

N24 General Form of Judgement.pdf

[dx100uk]

just download the N180

 

no to mediation

1 wit you

the rest is obv

 

3 copies

1 to the court

1 to CEL [minus sig/phone/email]

1 for your file

 

the N180 is also in our legal section of the library

[alladin78]

Thanks for responding this late @dx100uk

Sorry its not that obvious to me.

Section A - I've selected 'No' to Mediation/Settlement

B - I've added my correspondence details (this was obvious)

C - I've selected 'Yes (is this right?)

D - Not sure what to put in here -

D1 - I've given details of the nearest court that hears moneyclaims with my reasons

D2- ?? Not sure what Expert Evidence is?

D3 - 1 (if its just me?)

D4 - I've added these in.

 

Thanks so much!! God bless you.

[alladin78]

I've filled the forms D2 -No.

printed 3 copies, redacted my number and email for CEL copy.

And put them in envelopes which I will send in recorded/tracked mail tomorrow.

Should I also send en electronic version to ensure that the response is received within the 7 days from 26th Jan 2019?

Also, is it worth me calling the court up to enquire about the letter they claim to have sent to me last month?

Thanks

Edited January 31, 2019 by alladin78
one mroe qu

[dx100uk]

within 7 days of the 26th the order says

plenty of time for recorded

ok well you didn't get a letter

you are a LiP [litigant in person

and are given leeway for getting things wrong or errors.

 

should be ok

[alladin78]

My claim on MCOL has the following update:

 

DQ sent to you on 19/12/2018

DQ filed by claimant on 19/12/2018

General sanctions order was made on 26/01/2019

You filed a DQ on 06/02/2019

Your claim was transferred to on 06/02/2019

 

What will happen now?

- Will I get a letter detailing what needs to happen next?

Do I need to speak to a solicitor?

 

I cannot believe that they've progressed this claim without even giving me the name of their solicitor!!

[dx100uk]

CEL don't use solicitors, have you not atleast gathered that one yet.. they try and wing it hoping the defendant caves in.

 

you'll get a notice of allocation from the count court

give a court date and a dates to file witness statements by

 

have you not been reading this very forum in the downtimes between stages to get ready for what might be next in the claim?

[alladin78]

Dear @dx100uk

CEL did get QDR solicitors to send me a few letters.

But the claim form does not have a solicitor's sign or name.

 

I have been reading various threads but most of them seem to have a frightening end, or some of them just don't have the outcome!

I've searched N180 and only reached page 3 of 10! so I do have a fair more reading to do!

 

I gather I need to start preparing a Witness Statement, and have been trolling through CAG for templates.

I should be able to manage a draft, but am confused on how to cite precedents from other cases!

As many of the threads are not exactly the same as my case.

 

I will post again once I get the letter from county court. This is really scary for someone like me who's never had to go to a court before!

 

Sorry if I keep repeating foolish questions,

but I just dont have a good enough understanding despite all the reading I've been doing and find yours and Ericsbrother's guidance simpler to follow

- if I could get a flow diagram explaining how this process works it would really help

(with what form is issued by whom at what points and what the possible outcomes to it may be)

I may even draw it up based on what little I know to help others once my case is over.

 

As always, thanks for your help.. I would really be lost if this forum wasnt there!

Edited February 6, 2019 by dx100uk
spacing

[FTMDave]

some of them just don't have the outcome!

 

But that's good! It means the PPC were ignored or told to Foxtrot Oscar and then crawled back under their stone. Also have a read of some of the cases in the PPC Successes sticky. You'll see these clowns are eminently beatable!

 

This is really scary **** for someone like me who's never had to go to a court before

 

Going to court isn't pleasant, but don't get mixed up between a criminal court and a civil court. You'll just sit around a table with a judge dressed in a suit who will give you ample time to speak and explain your case. No more intimidating than a job interview.

 

Post up a draft of your WS, and the experts will be pleased to help you retweak it.

 

CEL and the other PPCs are not interested in the law and what is legal, they're interested in using the threat of court (and actual court in your case) to intimidate motorists into coughing up monies they don't owe. You can't be sure, but if you put in a good WS it's perfectly possible the fleecers will drop the case or not show up in court. Go for it, they're there to be beaten!

[ericsbrother]

they dont use solicitors, they dont wnat to spend money on one and you dotn need to either.

 

case precednts and persuasive cases are all different but they follow definite bits of law so if your defence is about inadequate signage then look at a massive bubndle of previous claims that have been successfully defended and see which ones use that at the main argument. On the parking pranksers web site and blog spot you will find reports of court cases and in some cases full transcripts so choose the most relevant ones.

 

Contract law is about contracts, not parking so other case law involving building companies, banks and even foreign governments all apply ( albeit to the parking co's advantage) so dont just look for cases involving CEL

Edited February 7, 2019 by honeybee13
Paras, typos

[alladin78]

Received a letter from CCBC saying they've moved the case to my local court, and the district judge will be in touch.

 

I'm reading through the various sites to prepare my WS.

 

Couple of questions:

 

1>How do I go about understanding which categories exist and which I can use to base mine on (based on closest fit)?

Signage was not clear on contract (I will research that), but my point is more about the fact that the amount charged (£100/reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days) is too high!

 

2>Is there a way of understanding if there is a point to defending this claim, as the ANPR pics do show the car going in the morning and coming out in the evening?

 

3>What is the worse outcome from this case?

I have to pay up the £300+ they're claiming as damages if judge rules in their favour?

Is it possible that I end up having to pay more?

 

Thanks Mili

Edited February 10, 2019 by dx100uk
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[FTMDave]

I would use post 39 as the basis for your WS, expand on each of the points.

 

Add about them refusing payment.

 

Also add about their abuse of the county court system by inventing extra costs to get round the small claim costs limit.

 

To answer your points: 1. There's no point arguing about £100 being too high any more.

 

2. Of course it's worth defending! They have no locus standi, the signs are crap, they refused payment, most of their claim is for fictitious invented costs not allowed in small claims, etc., etc.

 

3. Yes, the worst that can happen is that you'll have the pay their claim, plus maybe some small fixed costs which may or may not already be included in their claim. This point alone shows it's worth defending. A lot of the companies withdraw cases or don't turn up in court when they see a robust defence.

[alladin78]

Thanks @FTMDave

 

My defence may need changing -

 

from post #39,

point 3 - Letter before claim,

from reading through different sites,

my understanding is that it is the same as the CEL letter quoting "Pre Action Conduct and Protocol" which is dated 24/8/18 (see post #54 which has all letters CEL claims to have sent me).

 

I've started with just points 1 and 2, seems a bit weak!

but I plan to add CEL response to my letter asking for information on who owns the property and the contract they have with the landowner which they've not supplied stating that it is not required for small claims (at the point the letter was sent, it was not assigned to small claims track).

 

I did offer payment, but have no proof of the phone call, and CEL have not provided call records as part of the SAR request.

To be honest, as it was so long ago I'm not sure whether it was CEL, or the DCA (ZZPS) that called me!

The CEL SAR bundle also did not include the letters from QDR Solicitors either! Do I add that also to my defence?

 

Also, I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, but not the sole driver.

Should I also add POPLA violation as they've not identified the driver as me?

 

I just have to add - some of these parking apps and sites suck as they do not offer a means to make back dated payments!

which I can prove for the phoneandpay site as I did try to make the payment the next day when I remembered!!

 

Also I didnt understand what you meant by

"Also add about their abuse of the county court system by inventing extra costs to get round the small claim costs limit."

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited February 10, 2019 by dx100uk
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