NE Parking Ltd 2 windscreeen PCNs - General Street Car Park, Blackpool - appeal rejected

[curlo9597]

Good afternoon,

 

Am hoping someone can offer me some advice with regard to NE Parking Ltd and whether or not I should pay not 1 but 2 PCN's issued within 24 hours whilst parked in the same parking spot over August Bank Holiday weekend in August.

 

Arrived in Blackpool having booked a hotel to stay the evening with my partner and 2 children on the evening of Sunday 27th August.

 

I was unaware that there was limited parking at the hotel and upon checking in at 18:10 I was informed that I would need to use one of the car parks situated nearby at a cost of £12 for 24 hours.

 

I then made the decision to park my car (at approx 18:15) on one of the few available spaces at one of the NE Parking Ltd's car parks, as it was closer than were I had initially left my car prior to checking in.

 

I checked the payment meter and discovered that there was no facility to pay by card and it would only accept coins, to which neither me or my partner had at the time.

 

The mistake I then made was deciding to leave my car without a ticket for a short period of time whilst I carried our bags into the hotel room and then went off in search of a cash machine or shop to get the required change for the parking meter.

 

I managed to purchase a ticket at 18:36 only to find that within 21 minutes of leaving my car I had been issued a PCN for failing to display a valid ticket. Great!

 

I then took the PCN off my windscreen and left it in my car with the ticket I had just purchased on my dashboard, as there was very little I could do now with it being a Sunday evening and upon trying to contact the company managed to speak with a mobile supervisor based in Hartlepool!

 

I left my car parked overnight and returned to it around 3pm the following day to set off for the journey home.

Arrived to find another PCN had been issued for failing to display a valid ticket but unfortunately the ticket had blown off from my dashboard to the side of my front passenger seat which was probably due to strong winds which Blackpool had the previous evening and day.

 

When I got home I e-mailed a detailed letter of appeal to the company outlining my circumstances with photographic evidence of the ticket I had purchased plus receipts of my check in time at the hotel and from my purchase to get cashback from the shop.

 

I respectfully requested that the 2nd PCN issue be cancelled due to the fact I had already been issued one and that I could prove I had purchased a valid ticket. I also requested that the 1st PCN be reduced to an administrative charge due to being parked for 21 minutes without a valid ticket.

 

I have today received 2 letters from NE Parking advising that both PCN's were in fact issued correctly and that I was parked in breach of the terms and conditions of parking.

 

Firstly, should I pay them for both PCN's?

Secondly, can a second PCN be issued if one has already been done?

Thirdly, if I appeal to the IAS as suggested by them using the same letter and evidence offered, would it help to get the PCN's cancelled or reduced?

 

I accept begrudgingly that the first PCN I may struggle to quash, as I have stayed longer than the grace period (heard it is 10 mins) but it just seems as though I have been a victim of an over zealous parking attendant who has watched me on CCTV then very quickly issued the PCN before I returned with my ticket.

 

The second PCN I feel really strongly about not paying because I can prove I have purchased a valid ticket but being parked near a sea front with strong winds and not being able to stick the ticket to my windscreen has made it look as though I haven't paid and displayed.

 

Thanks very much in advance for any opinions or advice that may be offered regarding this issue.

 

Carl

Edited September 14, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[dx100uk]

please complete this:

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket-(1-Viewing)-nbsp

for each windscreen ticket

 

moved to the private parking forum.

[curlo9597]

1. 26th & 27th August 2018

2. Yes - sent via e-mail on Mon 27th August

3. N/A

4. N/A

5. NE Parking Ltd

6. General Street Car Park, Blackpool

docs1.pdf

[dx100uk]

hi ya had to hide those

you left the pcn/ref no's showing

 

so you appealed before the ntk arrived in each case

and opps you've name yourself as sthe driver...

 

you should have come here first

 

ok we can paddle backwards and have large buckets to bail out the water.

next time you ever get a speculative invoice, await the ntk.

[curlo9597]

Thanks for your quick reply and apologies for the confusion with my earlier posts. Am I right in assuming that I should pay these two "invoices" then to avoid further problems?

[dx100uk]

god no!!

[curlo9597]

Well that’s reassuring! Thanks!

 

Can I just ask for my own curiosity that general advice is to ignore any further letters from this company?

 

Am I right in thinking that they won’t take this to court or forward on to a debt recovery company?

 

As am sure you can tell this but I have very little knowledge of PCNs and naively thought that my appeal letter would do the trick!!

[dx100uk]

a dca is not a bailiff

and have zero legal powers

safe to IGNORE THEM.

 

you should get an NTK for each 29-56 days from the event

pop those up when they arrive.

 

if you get a leter of claim from a solicitor then pop back.

 

the others will be around tomorrow

obv you cant return to get pictures of all the signs?

[dx100uk]

https://cse.google.co.uk/cse?cx=partner-pub-8889411648654839:6449422593&ie=UTF-8&q=NE+Parking+Blackpool&sa=Search+CAG

[dx100uk]

ive sorted your uploads for you.

 

dx

[curlo9597]

Thanks for sorting my previous uploads. Please see attached picture of the car park sign I took at the time I was issued with the PCN's.

 

Also attached a picture I took of the payment meter should it be required at a later stage

Picture of Car Park Sign - NE Parking Ltd.pdf

Picture of Payment Meter - NE Parking Ltd.pdf

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG. NE parking are members of the IPC and as such you will never get a favourable response. They have given you the opportunity of a further appeal to the IAS but unfortunately, this body is controlled by the IPC so again, they work for the parking companies and not you so you won't get a fair hearing.

 

 

I did read your letter of appeal and while it doesn't explicitly name you as the driver, it could be inferred by the contents of the letter.

 

 

I suggest that you ignore everything bar court papers. Do some research on the car park and see what planning permissions they have to run the site and who the landowner is.

 

 

I'll have a look on google to see if I can find the site in question

[silverfox1961]

I have looked on google street view. Can you confirm which car park it is based on this image.

 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.8229349,-3.0546889,3a,75y,259.15h,74.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV1mDg6OymMo7yctdDjR3jg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

 

The one directly ahead or the one to the right-or somewhere else I have missed-Ignore this now.

 

 

I have found out which one it is. I should have looked at the image of the pay machine

 

 

The only signs I can see are at the entrance (based on a June 17 image) however in April of that year, there were two other signs on the wall of the building next door. Either way, they are insufficient to form a contract (in my opinion.

[curlo9597]

Thanks very much for your replies. I am more than prepared to go to court and fight this company, if not on principle as to issue a PCN after my car was left without a ticket for 9 minutes and then issue another one less than 24 hours later seems harsh in the extreme to me.

 

Can I ask a couple of questions which will help me make a final decision as to how I proceed;

 

1. Aside from the inadequate signage at the car park, based on the circumstances outlined in my appeal later (in your experience and opinion) would I have a chance in court to get both PCN's cancelled?

 

2. If I go to court and lose, approximately how much would I be expected to pay out in charges and costs? Given that I can (begrudgingly) settle both PCN's for £120 if I pay them in the next few days, it would be a bit reckless of me to take this to court and risk having to fork out hundreds of pounds should the worst happen.

 

Thanks very much.

[silverfox1961]

Getting them cancelled won't work as you would have to appeal to the IAS and my comments previously give my opinion of them.

 

 

IF this were to be taken to court and you lost (which a good defence would ensure that never happened) the most you would have to pay is the £100 or each ticket and the court costs which is fixed in the small claims court so the maximum they would get is around £300.

 

 

If they tried to take court action for each PCN separately, the second ticket should get thrown out as an abuse of process as they would have known about the second ticket before initiating action.

 

 

If court action is mooted, either Gladstones or BW Legal would need to send a Letter Before Action/Claim. Gladstones are owned by the same people as the IPC so it's clear that it's an old boys club.

 

 

There is also the fact that members of the IPC have to follow a code of practice and that means that they should allow a MINIMUM of 10 minutes grace period.

 

 

IF the signs by the cash machine do not state that each 24 hour period ends at midnight then the second ticket was given wrongly and it would never see the light of day in court

[curlo9597]

Thanks very much for your advice. It is greatly appreciated and has helped me to make my mind up that I will fight this matter in court IF it comes to that.

 

Am sorry to keep asking questions but can I clarify one other thing if possible. Would it be best to try and submit an appeal to the IAS even though it will end up being rejected? If anything to demonstrate to a court that I have gone through the proper channels to try and resolve this issue?

 

I know there are a lot of IFs and BUTS with this type of scenario but would like to be as fully prepared as possible should the matter end up in court.

[shamrocker]

Ericsbrother will most likely be along tomorrow and rip them to shreds. In the meantime, I'll throw in what I think about it, having looked on Google Streetview at what I believe is the car park in question.

 

Take the second ticket first - nowhere does it state that the ticket MUST be displayed on the dashboard. It merely states "Place ticket on dashboard" on the ticket. That is exactly what you did. Given the location of the car park, they ought to have made provisions for strong winds accessing the car and moving the ticket. The fact they haven't isn't really your concern. In any event, you complied with their request to place it on the dashboard. Furthermore, you clearly possessed a valid ticket, as demonstrated by the photo of the ticket. They have no hope of claiming from you on this one, in my opinion.

 

Now for the first ticket - have you still got the original penalty notice that was affixed to the screen? Does it state the time the vehicle was observed from?

 

By writing to them, you have identified yourself as the driver, thus making it slightly easier for them to pursue you (no need to chase driver under POFA). It's done now though, and not the end of the world. The letter could also come in handy later should they go down the court route, as I can imagine any reason-minded judge appreciating that you made a positive attempt to address the issue at an early stage.

[curlo9597]

Thanks very much for your reply and advice regarding these PCN's.

 

As you will see from the attachment the parking attendant has not recorded a time or date that my vehicle was first seen in contravention.

 

As per my letter of appeal to them I can prove from a receipt (and CCTV if they wish to use that) when checking in at 18:10 my vehicle was not on their car park.

 

It would have been at least 5 minutes before getting the key from reception, walking back to where I had parked and then driving in to their car park.

I have been given 9 minutes grace before the PCN was issued!

 

From closer reading of the PCN it mentions additional charges if they don't receive payment from me.

 

Am I right in thinking that legally they can't enforce any additional charges on top of the £100 per PCN?

First PCN issued by NE Parking 26-08-18.pdf

Edited September 16, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[dx100uk]

cant even charge the £100 there is no contravention..

[curlo9597]

Thank you.

There are a lot of 'may's on the parking sign but I can see why a lot of people just end up paying these PCN's to this joke of a company!

 

Now I come to think of it I am definitely not in contravention of this so called 'contract' for parking on their private land as per the wording on the sign.

 

Yes, my car didn't display a valid ticket for 9 minutes before the PCN was issued but I did pay £12 for 24 hours parking as required. My vehicle did display a valid ticket until the wind blew it from my dashboard.

 

I guess I am just shocked that given the evidence presented in my appeal letter they didn't cancel both of the PCN's. They really must be desperate to get money off people!

[honeybee13]

I guess I am just shocked that given the evidence presented in my appeal letter they didn't cancel both of the PCN's. They really must be desperate to get money off people!

 

I think you've got it in one, curlo.

 

 

HB

[dx100uk]

its not their land!!

who says they have a valid contract to even issue such claims on behalf of the landowner?

[curlo9597]

Indeed! Am hoping that’s the case anyway but given what’s been discussed on the thread so far I am more than confident of beating this company if they decide to take me to small claims court.

 

I have got an application form to make an enquiry with the Land Registry to find out who the land owner is. Can one of you advise if I should go ahead with this or is it best to leave it with until further letters are received from them?

[dx100uk]

not sue if you've read these and if anyone else has already travelled this ownership route?

https://cse.google.co.uk/cse?cx=partner-pub-8889411648654839:6449422593&ie=UTF-8&q=Car+Park,+Blackpool+&sa=Search+CAG

dx

[shamrocker]

Thanks very much for your reply and advice regarding these PCN's.

 

As you will see from the attachment the parking attendant has not recorded a time or date that my vehicle was first seen in contravention.

 

As per my letter of appeal to them I can prove from a receipt (and CCTV if they wish to use that) when checking in at 18:10 my vehicle was not on their car park.

 

It would have been at least 5 minutes before getting the key from reception, walking back to where I had parked and then driving in to their car park.

I have been given 9 minutes grace before the PCN was issued!

 

From closer reading of the PCN it mentions additional charges if they don't receive payment from me.

 

Am I right in thinking that legally they can't enforce any additional charges on top of the £100 per PCN?

 

So.....for all anyone knows, you could have been at the ticket machine when the ticket was issued. There is a consideration period that needs to be allowed (10 minutes?), so if they have not documented the time of commenced observation, how can they demonstrate compliance? Put simply, they can't - so they're stumped on ticket 1 as well. Wait for Ericsbrother to advise further tomorrow, or when he gets an opportunity to look in.

 

All said and done, you paid them their £12 for 24 hours parking. It's not as if you're trying to dodge paying by way of a technicality. They're just greedy so and so's - and doing a bad job of it.

 

Regards the supposed additional charges - this is difficult if they pursue you under POFA, hence the advice is always to wait until the NOK arrives before deciding on next steps. Nevertheless, I'm sure I read within the Beavis case that the accepted charge for breach of any terms (£85) should cover any such costs incurred by the car parking management company. I'm a bit sketchy on the detail. That term essentially facilitates them adding an extra £60 on top of the £100 once they pass it over to their DCA friends. You're a while off worrying about that anyway, but look it up within the Beavis case if you get time.

 

In terms of why they've not listened to your appeal - there's no profit in granting appeals. It's all about making money - and not about fair and professional management of a car parking space. It's also the reason why you were ticketed so quickly. They quite likely saw your ticket displayed on the windscreen at some point too., but ticketed you the next day anyway.

 

They've got a fight on their hands to win this one though - and that's coming from me as a relative novice on this stuff. EB will blow it apart.