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tigeress289

No Insurance and car seized

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Every now and then we like to do a big shop for bulky items like toilet rolls and kitchen roll, it was summer so bottled water and diet coke cans as the boys drink quite a lot. Everything fitted into the back of the mini cab we had to take home.

 

I have had far bigger shops in Sainsburys and Morrisons.

I have no problem going court but would like to see what was said as the officer assumed without asking which cash and carry or looking at receipt. I just felt I was being picked on and he was looking for something to do me with.

 

This has got worse since then as I am finding the people who are legal and abide by our laws are being targeted for the slightest infringement.

 

I just paid a £65 fine for having the rear of my car in a yellow box junction on green lanes junction with St Anne's road for 13 seconds.

 

I never knew it was there until I double checked.

So if I am in the wrong I admit it.

This abuse of power in making me defend myself in a court that is bias towards police is wrong.

 

One other question please, if found guilty , can I appeal and how far can I go.

 

Thank you all for time and help.

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Have you tried what Uncle Bulgaria suggested?

 

 

Years ago, I was threatened with court through a complete misunderstanding by the local constabulary. A letter explaining matters to the chief constable resolved it.

 

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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I have no problem going court but would like to see what was said as the officer assumed without asking which cash and carry or looking at receipt. I just felt I was being picked on and he was looking for something to do me with.

 

.....

 

This abuse of power in making me defend myself in a court that is bias towards police is wrong.

 

One other question please, if found guilty , can I appeal and how far can I go. Thank you all for time and help.

 

You must have an idea of what was said : you were there.

 

The court won’t be interested (at least initially) on if you might have felt you were being picked on. If the police pass a file to the CPS, the CPS prosecute, and it goes to court, the Magistrates will seek an answer to “is the defendant guilty of the offence charged?”.

They might later (considering mitigation rather than defence) consider if you were “picked on”, but when were you “picked on”?

 

If the initial facts suggested you weren’t insured, then you’ll find it hard to show the officer wasn’t acting within the law for the initial stop (if others were also being randomly stopped), and then all the officer need do is explain why they had reasonable belief you were driving in the course of business as to why they felt you were uninsured.

 

Then the court can decide.

Since it hasn’t gone to court, how come you already believe the court is biased?

 

Of course you can appeal. You can appeal judgement, sentence, or both. It would be to the Crown Court and expensive.

What are your grounds of appeal? If you don’t yet know, why not

a) see what the evidence against you is, by going to court

b) see what the court finds, and

c) take legal advice : if not before Court, certainly after if considering a Crown Court appeal. Legal advice before court might also be “take the FPN offer”, but it is then up to you if you want your “day in court, on principle”. Principles can be expensive, though .....

 

How far might you appeal it?

On the basis of ‘case stated’ or ‘point of law’ : to the Crown Court

 

After that, any appeal must be on the basis of ‘point of law’ : and all the way to the Supreme Court if you get permission from the lower court and / or the higher court decides there is a point of law to be decided.

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Surely the cps will have to produce evidence that the shopping was for business and not personal.

How would they do that???

I agree that a letter to the superintendent with the insurance confirmation attached could stop anything going further.

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If the cash and carry invoice was paid by card, was a business or personal card used?

If paid by card or by cash : who was the cash and carry invoice made out to?

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This what I was thinking. Also my Cotsco card is not a business/trade one, is yours? I fear if you have used your brother's and it's a trade one then you will have an issue .

 

I note you are, or I get the impression that you are, intimate that the Officer was biased because of race.

If you believe this have you made a formal complaint? If not you should because of you rely on this in court they will all why you haven't done so.

 

Also you should provide an history of your Costco purchases to show that you are not buying for trade.

However that's going to be another issue if it's not your card I suppose.

 

I continue to be amazed that the Police have taken such a hard line based on the fact that you have been to Costco.

 

I've made a couple of assumtions when writing the above, forgive me if they are not correct.

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Apologies,I have no idea where I got Costco from, I see it was a cash and carry that does not require membership, so I suppose it will only be possible to provide your shopping history by bank statement if you paid by card.

 

I wish you well.

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thread tidied please refrain from using reply with quote as this makes the thread twice as long

 

23 quotes of previous post when answering removed.

 

dx


please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

 

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Thank you, I do have an idea of what I said but fail to see how the officer could state I was not insured.

 

I have always had insurance as is the same with my brother. As for the attitude, I could have told him I owned Tesco's as I couldn't believe I was going to have my brothers car seized.

 

On the appeal front, I have never trusted the law. Many years ago I was taken to court for speeding on Tottenham Court road. I had watched the police car drive by me as I was sitting at lights at the beginning of it. Further up I passed the police car on the inside as the traffic was slower where the police car was.

 

This went through 3 different courts before I gave up but my best quote to the Judge in the final court was.

 

On my first appearance I was a normal driver, on the second appearance I was Stirling Moss and on the third I was Evil Kenevil. I had proved I was not speeding and pointless carrying on. It was a joke.

 

 

And for me years later I am getting the same thing again. The frightening part is most seem to thing its OK for the police to act in this way.

 

 

One friend changed their insurance to business as they often use a step ladder to change bulbs round their old mums house. £15 a month cheaper, result.

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That's the joke, it was a cash , cash and carry with no membership. The officer didn't even ask which one or to see receipt.

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Something not quite right here.

 

What do you do for a living?

What does the owner of the vehicle do for a living?

What vehicle was it, car, estate or van?

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Something not quite right here.

 

What do you do for a living?

What does the owner of the vehicle do for a living?

What vehicle was it, car, estate or van?

The OP I believe is a Builder

2 That has nothing to with anything

3Toyota Hybrid 6 seater.

 

 

The only thing here I could make out is that this may not be a business cover issue but rather a Vehicle type Issue that the OP is facing. The OP may not have covered due to the engine size limitations or Vehicle type limitations set out in his DOC cover terms and conditions. Its becoming increasingly common to set a 1.8 engine capacity limit, with Chassis type Limitation excluding 4x4's Suv's MPV's etc and COVER LIMITATION as in Third party ONLY no business no commute your screwed, Check your terms and cons of your DOC booklet.

 

 

But if your Insurer is going to state in a letter your covered, Business and all, then You need to set up a meeting with the inspector at the station where the officer is based, if your a business you would have a business account to purchase things with, If you paid by card on a personal account that is evidence of a personal transaction and not a business one and show this to the inspector too.

 

 

Subject access request the footage from his camera this can take a month to come through mind!, There are policies in place that if he wasn't 100% sure you were insured or it was disputed as there is a insurance in place and the level of cover is disputed and he cant speak to the insurer he should have provided a HORT1 or producer but not all forces will go by that.

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Point 2 has everything to do with it.

Do they own a business or do trips to and from a cash and carry as part of there work?

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Point 2 has everything to do with it.

Do they own a business or do trips to and from a cash and carry as part of there work?

From what I can gather they both DONT own a business together, they aren't members of the Cash and Carry and OP has stated the Cash and Carry allows members of the public to shop there without membership. OP does a bulk shop at Cash and Carry for personal use not business.

 

 

The level of cover the OP's brother has is ofcourse irrelevant as its cover for the person on the policy entitled to drive that car. If OP's policy excludes the use of DOC for business on his policy or excludes the class of vehicle,engine,chassis type that his brothers car is that he was using, the OP is in a bit of a spot.

 

 

As we have gathered, the OP states that both he has business policy as it worked out cheaper to have this cover the question is did his DOC cover his use of his brothers car or the alleged offence of business use?

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paid by my personal debit card in my name. If I paid cash the invoice is cash no name.

 

The stop was one of them random pull over a couple of cars at a time.

 

 

One thing I forgot to add, on the conditional offer notice it states,

 

On the 16/06/2018 at 14:05 hours. I had already phoned my brother to tell him the officer has mentioned business. Having checked I have just seen my brother amended his insurance to add business at 14.15 hours. Could I have stopped them seizing the car then if he had told me..

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So your brother updated his policy to include business 10 mins after you were pulled....

The plot thickens.

What does your brother do for a living?

You have contradicted yourself in other posts.

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Someone mentioned a van.

Was this a van or a car?

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Take your brother insurance out of it for now.

 

 

Unless your a named driver to which you are not I assume, it has no relevance to your case, The fact remains in proving your not a trader or using the vehicle for business purposes.

 

 

So... You used a debit card that has a transaction code on the receipt related to your personal bank account, if its a personal account like you say, then the bank statement that shows the transaction proves it wasn't purchased with a business account so there lies your evidence to prove "reasonable doubt", it is reasonable to assume that if your a business you have a business account and make business purchases with because business tax and balancing the books right!

 

 

I will assume you have no LTD business in your name or an employee of that shows on companies house either right secretary manager director etc! evidence again of reasonable doubt, its all circumstantial evidence of course but its evidence all the same.

 

 

BUT you could ALSO find that the DOC extension you were using MAY not have covered you ANYWAY, If your brother is Leasing his car or in some way shape or form renting it, it will not be covered, you will not be insured if your under 25, DOC only covers thirdparty so if you smash it up its your brothers paper weight but not relevant, What limitations are imposed on you motor certificate in the DOC part? what restrictions are in place?

 

 

Again take your brothers cover level out of it, its for him and not you, But I do suspect that a car conversation when you got pulled was "I'm not covered, my bro's car is going to towed, ring him and tell him to insure it now so they can take it" this failed though didn't it?

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Someone mentioned a van.

Was this a van or a car?

I believe op said it was a 6/7 seater hybrid. Prius plus type car that if you fold down the seats it turns into a van pretty much, ive got sportage suv and you could fit 2 monthly shop in a poundworld in.

Edited by DarkAtmosphere

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Hi, my brother car is a Toyota hybrid 6 seater.

He changed his insurance to business to try and stop getting his car towed away.

Technically it was still covered by his own insurance once the items were removed,

adding business cost him £37 extra to save £150 seizing and the time to go and get it.

 

He is a pen pusher and he never took the insurance out 10 mins after I was stopped, it was longer but that is the time on the offer notice. However, I did not know that at the time and would have argued for them not to have seized the car.

 

I phoned him after the officer said I was not insured on his policy, which I was but when you have an officer talking down to you, there is very little you can do as my wife was with me at the time. We were shopping on a Saturday.

 

As for insurance we both have fully comp and each allows us to drive another's car.

I am not a named driver on his policy as he is not on mine.

 

My purchase was not a business buy and I do not have a company or employ people.

I use my car for social and to and from work, where ever that may be.

My insurance states self employed builder and its a car, not a van.

 

I am going to pass this over to the solicitors and see what they can do as I feel as a member of the public, the odds of getting anywhere other than the court are stacked against me with the police.

I may as well employ them now.

Edited by dx100uk
spacing

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I think that if you manage to speak or write to the right person this will be withdrawn.

The cps would have hard time proving you were acting as a business from what you described.

Have you tried contacting the chief constable?

Otherwise, is there a contact address or email in the letter you received?

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Yes , I have just re checked and it is from a different address and the person and email is included. I will put together a letter now and send it direct. Thank you

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