17 year old.... agreement to purchase vehicle from auction

[BazzaS]

I was just reading the T&Cs again and it says if an under 18 was to bid the parents will be liable to pay, and so court proceedings will be issued in their name.

 

Could this still happen even if they did not know I was bidding?,

 

If you came round my house and negligently broke my window, I could sue them, as the adults responsible for an under 18 (you), as I couldn’t sue you directly. That’s how the civil courts work with regards to under 18s.

If they didn’t know you were coming to my house : irrelevant. They don’t stop being responsible for your actions (as an under 18) because they don’t know what you were up to.

 

how would they get my parents name and other details necessary to got to court.

 

Are they on the searchable electoral roll?

Searchable on 192.com (or similar)?

Then they could use an Enquiry agent to confirm the information.

[unclebulgaria67]

Think it is a bit more complicated than that.

 

Yes in theory parent/guardian could be held liable for actions someone aged below 18, but if the parent/guardian defended any court claim based on not having any knowledge of what their child was doing, then I am not convinced a court would find them liable.

 

Someone I know once bid in an auction for a large piece of land in a tropical paradise. They were about 14 at the time and were using a school computer. The school was quite shocked, when they heard from the auction house that they had just won with their auction bid of about $4 million USD. Of course when the school explained that the bid was made by a 14 year old child attending a British comprehensive school and the auction site should have verified the identity of the bidder, the auction site could not take it any further.

 

The car auction site should have blocked under 18 year olds from bidding or for someone under 18 to provide parent/guardians consent to their auction account. The consent should have placed a limit on the value of any bid. No parent/guardian is likely to consent to signing a blank cheque for their child to make bids on an auction website.

 

Cannot see any legal basis for auction site to take this to court, if they knew the person was 17.

Edited September 3, 2018 by dx100uk
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[Ethel Street]

If you came round my house and negligently broke my window, I could sue them, as the adults responsible for an under 18 (you), as I couldn’t sue you directly. That’s how the civil courts work with regards to under 18s.

If they didn’t know you were coming to my house : irrelevant. They don’t stop being responsible for your actions (as an under 18) because they don’t know what you were up to.

 

 

You cannot sue the parents of a minor for the acts of their child either in tort or in contract except in some limited circumstances not relevant here (if the parent has negligently allowed the child to cause an accident causing bodily injury for example). In English law parents are not legally liable for their children's contractual debts unless they acted as guarantors.

[BazzaS]

You can sue the minor, through serving papers on the parents, though!

The parent(s) / guardian becomes the minors litigation friend.

 

Unless the minor also has capacity issues the litigation friend appointment ceases at the minor’s 18th Birthday (CPR 21.9)

[Ethel Street]

You can sue the minor, through serving papers on the parents, though!

The parent(s) / guardian becomes the minors litigation friend.

 

Yes indeed, but the Litigation Friend - who doesn't have to be the parents - isn't being personally sued and wouldn't be personally liable to pay the damages/contractual amounts if a court ruled the minor was liable. It's just a procedural device, the Litigation Friend is there as a representative of the minor to help protect their interests, not to be defendant in their place.

 

https://www.gov.uk/litigation-friend

[ericsbrother]

to address a couple of points that have not been explored yet. they cant sue your parents as neither you or they cant create a contract without their knowledge so that is a non starter.

secondly they say it is a trade sale so CRA doesnt apply. Well you are not a trader so the CRA DOES apply. they cant say it doesnt or they would have asked you for your VAT number before accepting your registration so that is going to sink them. if they go to court. lastly they can only recover their actual losses, it is not their business to make a profit for some third party on the end price of the car. They could sell it to the underbidder and bill you for the loss of profit that is the difference between the two prices so about £65 including commission and tax. If the underbidder doesnt want it then they relist it and ask for their costs for doing so, not the whole sum as that is not their loss. Dont forget, it isnt their car, it belongs to someone else and that person would have to instruct them to act as their agents in all matters not just the sale and even then my earlier comment about the underbidder will still apply.

 

 

In short, they are trying to bully you into buying this car when you have no need to. same applies with the VAT aspect, you dont pay VAT on the car price as it isnt a commercial purchase and they would like this to not be true but there you go. They just dont want to have to explain this to the seller and lose money as a result of their posturing

[BazzaS]

Yes indeed, but the Litigation Friend - who doesn't have to be the parents - isn't being personally sued and wouldn't be personally liable to pay the damages/contractual amounts if a court ruled the minor was liable. It's just a procedural device, the Litigation Friend is there as a representative of the minor to help protect their interests, not to be defendant in their place.

 

https://www.gov.uk/litigation-friend

 

True.

Yet, the effect will depend on what the parents choose to do IF the minor gets a CCJ against them ......

They don’t have to pay, but might not want to see an unsatisfied judgment reach the register ....

[Old Cogger]

I must admit, last time I had reason to consult with CAB, I was very disappointed with the quality of their advice. Perhaps some offices are better than others.

With that in mind, I'd recommend contacting a local community law centre. These are often staffed by qualified lawyers and have access to legal advice in a wide range of areas. To see if there is one locally, see: http://www.lawcentres.org.uk/

 

 

 

quality of their advice CAB - = the place they took us to discuss a situatioin no room elsewhere, I flushed after being sick of the poor financial advice from an ex Lloyds bank manager

[Ethel Street]

Yet, the effect will depend on what the parents choose to do IF the minor gets a CCJ against them

 

 

That's not going to happen, the case would never get to a court judgement, let alone a CCJ, for the reason that's been posted multiple times on this and other threads - so-called "contracts" entered into by minors are not enforceable because the minor does not have legal capacity to enter into a contract. I know there are certain limited exceptions - employment contracts, "necessaries" - but this case does not fall within those.

[England2018]

to address a couple of points that have not been explored yet. they cant sue your parents as neither you or they cant create a contract without their knowledge so that is a non starter.

secondly they say it is a trade sale so CRA doesnt apply. Well you are not a trader so the CRA DOES apply. they cant say it doesnt or they would have asked you for your VAT number before accepting your registration so that is going to sink them. if they go to court. lastly they can only recover their actual losses, it is not their business to make a profit for some third party on the end price of the car. They could sell it to the underbidder and bill you for the loss of profit that is the difference between the two prices so about £65 including commission and tax. If the underbidder doesnt want it then they relist it and ask for their costs for doing so, not the whole sum as that is not their loss. Dont forget, it isnt their car, it belongs to someone else and that person would have to instruct them to act as their agents in all matters not just the sale and even then my earlier comment about the underbidder will still apply.

 

 

In short, they are trying to bully you into buying this car when you have no need to. same applies with the VAT aspect, you dont pay VAT on the car price as it isnt a commercial purchase and they would like this to not be true but there you go. They just dont want to have to explain this to the seller and lose money as a result of their posturing

 

Hi thanks for your reply, when registering via email, they asked if I was a company and if I intend to reclaim vat. My reply was exactly “ I am not a company and not vat registered, I do not intend to reclaim vat”

 

Thank you everybody who is taking their time out to reply to this thread.

[England2018]

Also please can anybody recommed and free advice companies such as CAB. My local one is closed today and I want advice as soon as possible. Thanks

[honeybee13]

If you go to CAB they're very well -meaning but it depends on who you see.

 

Aren't you happy with our advice?

 

HB

[England2018]

If you go to CAB they're very well -meaning but it depends on who you see.

 

Aren't you happy with our advice?

 

HB

 

I’m sorry if I put it the wrong way, I’m very happy with the advice received on here, but a few people adviced me to get legal advice.

[honeybee13]

I don't know who advised you to get legal advice, but CAB isn't that. They may be able to recommend a lawyer near you .

 

HB

[England2018]

Hi just a quick update, they have sent me another invoice today which has incurred a 2% penalty each day for tthe last 4 days (Saturday,Sunday,Monday and today).

 

They have also sent a copy of this email to a solicitors firm and have instructed them that’s if payment is not received today to take “immediate Court/CCJ/Baliff action”.

 

I have not personally been sent anything by the solicitors as they have only just instructed them this morning.

My question is should the solicitors know that the contract is void as I am a minor.

 

Also if I do receive anything from them should I make them aware that I am a minor as the auctioneer may have only gave my name and address which is on the invoice.

 

Finally at what point do baliffs come in, is it before the court or after as I live with my parents and don’t own any assets it all belongs to my parents.

Edited September 4, 2018 by dx100uk
spacing

[dx100uk]

forget bailiffs

they only ever get involved AFTER they win a CCJ and you don't pay.

 

why cant you simply block their emails and bounce them back?

 

has all this been done by email to date...

[England2018]

Everything has been done over email, I’m not to sure how to block their emails nd bounce them back. They also have a few different email addresses. Also they somehow know when I have seen the email, as when they last sent it as soon as I had opened it they sent an email saying “thanks you for opening your invoice”. If they do take me to court and I get a CCJ what would happen as I don’t have ANY assests other than clothes and a phone.

[reallymadwoman]

If they do take me to court and I get a CCJ what would happen as I don’t have ANY assests other than clothes and a phone.

 

They would have wasted quite a lot of money as 1. they can't sue someone under 18 and 2. they shouldn't have let you bid when they knew you were under 18 so 3. if you defend a court claim, they won't win and 4. even if they did, they can't get money from you that you don't have, nor can they get it from your parents.

 

I think the best way forward might be to ask one of your parents to come on here, read what's written and ask any further questions they might have so that they can write to this company/solicitor on your behalf. Bear in mind that just because they say they've copied something to a solicitor, it doesn't mean that they have.

 

If you think you can cope with writing yourself, have a go and post it here so we can help you refine it.

[England2018]

They would have wasted quite a lot of money as 1. they can't sue someone under 18 and 2. they shouldn't have let you bid when they knew you were under 18 so 3. if you defend a court claim, they won't win and 4. even if they did, they can't get money from you that you don't have, nor can they get it from your parents.

 

I think the best way forward might be to ask one of your parents to come on here, read what's written and ask any further questions they might have so that they can write to this company/solicitor on your behalf. Bear in mind that just because they say they've copied something to a solicitor, it doesn't mean that they have.

 

If you think you can cope with writing yourself, have a go and post it here so we can help you refine it.

 

Thank you for replying. What would you recommend we say in the letter?

[reallymadwoman]

It would be best if you or your parents draft something and post it for comments - you know best what happened etc.

 

To give you a start, I'd suggest you first set out what happened prior to the auction, including that they knew you were under age but did not seek permission from your parents so should not have allowed you to have an account.

 

Then state that you are a minor so no valid contract was formed, you will not be paying them and will not enter into further correspondence. Obviously it will need a bit more than that, but if you draft something as a starting point, we can help some more.

[ericsbrother]

then that supports the assertion that they knowingly accepted you as a consumer and not a trader so the CRA does apply. they cant have their k cake and eat it.

 

You need to get things clear in your head about how you intend to respond the next time they bother you. Block their email address so it bounces back as undeliverable and force them to put pen to paper. This is often enough to make them think hard about continuing a pointless chase. If they dont know they are wrong they shouldnt be in business and learning the hard way will do them good.

 

In the meanwhile see if you can find out what the minimum bidding steps were so you can calculate the true loss for the car seller and also the commission lost by the auction house. I bet it is no more than £50 for the former and a tenner for the latter. This is the sum you may have to pay out if they do have a binding contract but other similar cases make me certain they dont

 

Hi thanks for your reply, when registering via email, they asked if I was a company and if I intend to reclaim vat. My reply was exactly “ I am not a company and not vat registered, I do not intend to reclaim vat”

 

Thank you everybody who is taking their time out to reply to this thread.