VCS Windscreeen PCN Letter before claim no permit - S13 9DP, Sheffield (On PCN letter is Innovation, Sheffield, S13 9DR)

[gingerbreadman007]

Hello CAG,

 

I have received Letter Before Claim.

Briefly will explain how does it happen.

 

In 2017 23rd December me and my friend decided to do surprise for our fried who lives faraway, more then 140 miles from us.

In car park (car par is allocated to block flats where lives our friend) we arrived in late evening around 10pm and park on visitor parking space.

Due to late evening and Christmas hustle I did not saw any of Private land parking sign.

In a next day 24/12 Christmas day our friend ( flat owner ) released that we need parking permit to stay in visitor parking. She was run out of permits and obviously on Christmas day she could not get any new ones.

When I went down stairs to move my car I saw that I have already PCN.

 

Now about LBC (Letter Before Claim )

This letter is from Vehicle Control Services LTD

 

If I do not pay 160 £ they will commence legal proceeding against me without future notice.

 

Principal Debt £160.00

Estimated Interest £7.43

Estimated Court Fees £25.00

 

Estimated Total £192.43

 

In the envelope they have enclosed a reply form giving me several options/tick boxes:

 

I agree I owe the debt

I owe some of the debt but not all of it

I don't know whether I owe the debt

I dispute the debt (I can explain why in a separate document)

I will pay what I owe now

I will pay but need time to pay

I am getting or intend to get legal advice

 

And then another section where I can request documents from them e.g. a copy of the written contract for the debt.

 

As with everyone else on this site, I don't agree with the charge.

 

Can anyone advise/help on what I should do next?

 

Thanks,

 

P.S. Below I add form that was recommended to fill in.

 

1 Date of the infringement – 24/12/2017

2 Date on the NTK – 03/01/2018

3 Date received – 05/01/2018

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? – NO, they did not mention about it.

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event – No photographic evidence has been provided.

6 Have you appealed? – No, I did not appeal

Have you had a response? - N/A

7 Who is the parking company? – Vehicle control Services Limited

8. Where exactly – Car was parked at the postcode - S13 9DP, Sheffield (On PCN letter is Innovation, Sheffield, S13 9DR)

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. – They offer appeal through myparkingcharge.co.uk

 

There are two official bodies, the BPA and the IAS. If you are unsure,

please check HERE - Vehicle Control Services Ltd 02498820 IPC

 

If you have received any other correspondence, please mention it here. – I have received 8 letters in total (all of them are in PDF file).

Letter 1 – 2 from Vehicle Control Services Limited.

Letter 3 – 5 from – Debt recovery plus ltd

Letter 6 – 7 from Zenith collections

Letter 8 from Vehicle Control Services Limited as a Letter before claim.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. I expect the forum guys will be along to advise you later. They'll know what to do, so please don't reply to VCS or the others until they tell you what they think.

 

 

Best, HB

[renegadeimp]

No mention of pofa. Space in car park was allocated to your friends flat? They havent got a leg to stand on. Your friend has superiority of contract and can allow whoever he wants to use that space.

 

Also they claim you parked at another location than the one you were actually at?

 

Can i ask, did you recieve a ticket on your window or was it ANPR capture?

[renegadeimp]

Also.. What does it say about the space in the tenancy agreement/deeds to the flat?

[ericsbrother]

Now are you sure about the dates you have given? You say you got a screen ticket and this means that the parking co has to wait 28 days for the driver to pay up before issuing a Notice to Keeper, which you say arrived a week later. If this is correct then they havent followed the POFA and there is no keeper liability.

So, what to do.

You write to VCS and tell them and say:

"Dear Simple Simon, VCS have failed to follow the protocols of the POFA and as such there is no keeper liability. Furthermore, if you are stupid enough to risk going to court on this then you will be minded to counterclaim for breach of the DPA for telling lies to the DVLA when obtaining your keeper details. The persuasive case being VCS v Phillip, Liverpool CC dec 2016 so you are letting them know that you are aware they have past form on this chicanery and you arent falling for it."

 

 

No point being polite, they will only see that as weakness. This response will amke them aware that you are following one of the motoring advice forums and that their chances of a court win have now dropped to almost zero and if you are minded to sue them for breach of the DPA that will be £500-1000 they have to spend on this rather than raking in the cash

 

 

 

The use the time to find out whether they have a contract at the site ( good chance there isnt). planning permission for the signs (they wont) and get your friend to send images of the signage as I bet it is not a contract to park but the opposite by saying residents only or no parking. You cnat agree to break a contract as the only way of forming it

[ericsbrother]

Now, if the site is misidentified then that is also ammunition you can use but not worth raising at this point. It wil be especially useful if they have some agreement with the other place as the pictures they will rely on will be totally dfferent to the ones you can produce so that will destroy their claim as you werent there-simples.

[gingerbreadman007]

No mention of pofa. Space in car park was allocated to your friends flat? They havent got a leg to stand on. Your friend has superiority of contract and can allow whoever he wants to use that space.

 

Also they claim you parked at another location than the one you were actually at?

 

Can i ask, did you recieve a ticket on your window or was it ANPR capture?

 

Hi,

Thanks for your respond.

I did park on visitor parking this space is not allocated to any flat.

My friend post code is a bit different (as I mention above). There is two building for one parking I am truing to find out what is post code for second building.

I did received window ticket (no picture provided so far). It was warning that I parked without permit and they will send me NTK (Notice to Keeper).

[gingerbreadman007]

Also.. What does it say about the space in the tenancy agreement/deeds to the flat?

 

I am truing to attached file with tenancy agreement.

Hope it is possible to see something.

If not please let me know I will type it.

[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

 

I can more or less read it, but it would be better as a pdf document so people can zoom on it. Our upload guide should help you.

 

 

HB

[gingerbreadman007]

Now are you sure about the dates you have given? You say you got a screen ticket and this means that the parking co has to wait 28 days for the driver to pay up before issuing a Notice to Keeper, which you say arrived a week later. If this is correct then they havent followed the POFA and there is no keeper liability.

So, what to do.

You write to VCS and tell them and say:

"Dear Simple Simon, VCS have failed to follow the protocols of the POFA and as such there is no keeper liability. Furthermore, if you are stupid enough to risk going to court on this then you will be minded to counterclaim for breach of the DPA for telling lies to the DVLA when obtaining your keeper details. The persuasive case being VCS v Phillip, Liverpool CC dec 2016 so you are letting them know that you are aware they have past form on this chicanery and you arent falling for it."

 

 

No point being polite, they will only see that as weakness. This response will amke them aware that you are following one of the motoring advice forums and that their chances of a court win have now dropped to almost zero and if you are minded to sue them for breach of the DPA that will be £500-1000 they have to spend on this rather than raking in the cash

 

 

 

The use the time to find out whether they have a contract at the site ( good chance there isnt). planning permission for the signs (they wont) and get your friend to send images of the signage as I bet it is not a contract to park but the opposite by saying residents only or no parking. You cnat agree to break a contract as the only way of forming it

 

Thank you for your full open answer.

Yes, all dates are correct.

I had a window ticket (notice that I park without permit). As far as I understand they have 14 day to send to me NTK with amount of charge.

Also I attach Private Land Terms and conditions.

[gingerbreadman007]

Hi.

 

 

I can more or less read it, but it would be better as a pdf document so people can zoom on it. Our upload guide should help you.

 

 

HB

 

Could you please double check now?

tenant2.pdf

[honeybee13]

That's better, thank you. Is there any chance you could do the same with your sign picture please?

 

 

HB

[gingerbreadman007]

That's better, thank you. Is there any chance you could do the same with your sign picture please?

 

 

HB

 

Yes, sure.

Privat land2.pdf

[honeybee13]

[Gick]

I had a window ticket (notice that I park without permit). As far as I understand they have 14 day to send to me NTK with amount of charge.

 

You are confusing the requirements of the POFA with regard to Automatic Number Plate Recogniton ANPR when a Notice to Keeper (NTK) must be served within 14 days of event, with windscreen tickets Notice to Driver (NTD) which you received.

 

In your case they must send the NTK no sooner than 29 days after the event (so as to give the driver the chance to pay the speculative charge as shown on the windscreen ticket) and no later than 56 days after the event (so that the Registered Keeper can check that the event is still fresh in the memory of the driver - who may or may not be one and the same).

 

Only if the relevant timescale above is complied with does there become a liability (all other circumstances being equal) against the Registered Keeper under POFA 2012

[renegadeimp]

I would ignore them now. Unless theyre stupid enough to send a compliant LBA. They are on to a non starter as there are so many holes in their attempt to get money from you.

[ericsbrother]

well, permit holders only so they cant offer you terms for somehting that is prohibited. This is a straightforward defence that wins evry time at court so they would be dumb indeed to go that far. You can let them know this IF they do send a proper PAP letter

 

I also read the tenancy as giving you the right to park as you wish in your space and there is no mention of anyone else enforcing any other condition. Now they may wella rgue that they ahve the right ot manage but that would only apply to parts that arent exclusively allocated to the tenancy at best.

 

So, either send the dismissive letter and add thisfirst point to it or wait and see what they do next.

 

As said, what you dont do is say anything that indicates who the driver was nor be polite, they dont deserve it. The letter can be used as evidenec that you tried to end the matter before court so they will look like the unreasonable party

Edited August 31, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[gingerbreadman007]

I had a window ticket (notice that I park without permit). As far as I understand they have 14 day to send to me NTK with amount of charge.

 

You are confusing the requirements of the POFA with regard to Automatic Number Plate Recogniton ANPR when a Notice to Keeper (NTK) must be served within 14 days of event, with windscreen tickets Notice to Driver (NTD) which you received.

 

In your case they must send the NTK no sooner than 29 days after the event (so as to give the driver the chance to pay the speculative charge as shown on the windscreen ticket) and no later than 56 days after the event (so that the Registered Keeper can check that the event is still fresh in the memory of the driver - who may or may not be one and the same).

 

Only if the relevant timescale above is complied with does there become a liability (all other circumstances being equal) against the Registered Keeper under POFA 2012

 

Thanks a lot for this explanation!

I do apologies that I post all this info that you already know, just would like to make sure we talking about same thing.

As far as I understand you talking about this part:

 

6. Ticketing

6.1 When a parking contravention is detected, a landholder may place a

ticket on a vehicle or give it to the driver at the time of the contravention.

In these circumstances the landholder must wait 28 days after which, if

there is no response, he/she may submit a request to the Driver and

Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) for details of the vehicle's registered

keeper. He/she may then write to the registered keeper to seek details of

the driver or payment of the parking charge.

 

6.2 Where a contravention is detected remotely (such as by cameras), the

landholder may request registered keeper data from the DVLA

immediately and must write to the registered keeper within 14 days

seeking details of the driver or payment of the parking charge.

 

If yes, then please advise on following.

If they did not provide me pictures of contravention so far. Is that mean that they do not have them or they just do not want to show them?

[gingerbreadman007]

I would ignore them now. Unless theyre stupid enough to send a compliant LBA. They are on to a non starter as there are so many holes in their attempt to get money from you.

 

Thank for the advice.

I think that they may go further because I am immigrant (can see this by personal details provided by DVLA) and can not protect my self in court. Easy money

[gingerbreadman007]

well, permit holders only so they cant offer you terms for somehting that is prohibited. This is a straightforward defence that wins evry time at court so they would be dumb indeed to go that far. You can let them know this IF they do send a proper PAP letter

 

I also read the tenancy as giving you the right to park as you wish in your space and there is no mention of anyone else enforcing any other condition. Now they may wella rgue that they ahve the right ot manage but that would only apply to parts that arent exclusively allocated to the tenancy at best.

 

So, either send the dismissive letter and add thisfirst point to it or wait and see what they do next.

 

As said, what you dont do is say anything that indicates who the driver was nor be polite, they dont deserve it. The letter can be used as evidenec that you tried to end the matter before court so they will look like the unreasonable party

 

I was thinking to send them following letter to request more details about contravention.

What do you think about it ?

 

Draft "Part 18" Letter

 

Dear Sirs

 

Request for Further and Better particulars

 

Regarding the above and claim form, leading on from PCN xxxxxx it is necessary to ask for more information regarding a purported debt to yourselves. The Particulars of Claim do not meet the requirements of the Practice Directions 16.4 as there are woefully insufficient details for me to form a defence. As such, please answer the following questions. Please respond, in full, within 14 days. Failure to respond will be recorded and shared during any future court proceedings.

 

Standing to bring a Claim

 

1. Please identify the landowner.

 

2. Please confirm that the Claimant can demonstrate a clear chain of authority from the landowner either by way of a written authority contract, deed or lease.

 

a). That this/these document(s) is/are in the Claimant’s possession or if not when they will be.

b). That such document(s) are available for inspection and if not when they will be.

c). That copies of the document(s) can be provided and that the originals will be available at court.

 

Breach of Contract?

 

3. What is the basis of the claimants claim?

 

(a) An agreed contract?

(b) A breach of contract?

© Trespass?

 

4. If 3.a or 3.b, what is the claimant’s legal capacity to offer parking at the location? And how is that supposed contract created, by sign, by permit or by some other means.

 

5. If 4.c what is the claimant’s legal capacity if not the land-owner or lessee?

 

The Contract

 

6. If it is the Claimant’s case that their claim is based in contract and that such a contract was conveyed by way of signs displayed at the location please confirm the following:

 

a). That the Claimant is able to produce a copy of all the various signs at the location as they were on the date the PCN was issued, indicating the various text point sizes together with a map or plan showing where they are deployed on site.

b). A schedule of works/maintenance showing how and when such signs on-site were repaired, replaced and cleaned etc.

c) Full proof that the signage complied with the relevant Code of Practice on the date the PCN was issued.

 

Evidence of a Contract, Breach of Contract or Trespass

 

7. Please confirm whether it is the Claimant’s intention to adduce photographs and/or CCTV footage of the relevant event and:

 

a). That such photographs and/or footage is in the Claimant’s possession and if not when it will be?

b). That such photographs and/or footage are available for inspection and if not when they will be?

c). That copies of the photographs and/or footage can be provided and that all the originals will be available at court.

 

Additional Costs claimed

 

8. Please confirm that the Claimant has in his possession an analysis of the costs incurred that form the additional charges included in the claim and:

 

a). That copies of such an analysis and other attendant documents upon which the analysis is based are available for inspection and if not when they will be?

b). That copies can be provided of the analysis and attendant documents and that all original documents upon which the Claimant might seek to rely on in this respect will be available at court.

 

 

TAKE NOTICE THAT YOU ARE REQUIRED TO ANSWER THE ABOVE REQUEST WITHIN 14 DAYS OF SERVICE OF THE SAME UPON YOU. SERVICE WILL BE DEEMED TO HAVE BEEN EFFECTED ON THE SECOND BUSINESS DAY AFTER POSTING.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

The Defendant

[honeybee13]

I'm not sure that was what EB meant by a dismissive letter and I'm not sure getting into letter tennis with these people is a good idea. Also I'm not sure about what you say about recording the conversation and playing it to the court.

 

Please wait until EB sees what you want to send and see what he thinks.

 

 

Where did you get the letter by the way?

 

 

HB

Edited August 31, 2018 by honeybee13
Addition

[dx100uk]

No

Do not send that

You have not got a court claim

Just a threat

 

Sit on your hands

Dont play stupid letter tennis

[gingerbreadman007]

I'm not sure that was what EB meant by a dismissive letter and I'm not sure getting into letter tennis with these people is a good idea. Also I'm not sure about what you say about recording the conversation and playing it to the court.

 

Please wait until EB sees what you want to send and see what he thinks.

 

 

Where did you get the letter by the way?

 

 

HB

 

Hi,

I will wait for sure.

[gingerbreadman007]

As far as I understand site regulation I can post links after 10 post.

So now you should see link.

 

https://padi.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/213845369-Letter-before-Claim-Further-and-Better-Particulars

[gingerbreadman007]

Ok, thanks you.

Edited August 31, 2018 by dx100uk
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