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Rover6699

P4 Parking windscreen PCN - DYL Woolwich London.

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1. The date of infringement? 16.08.18

 

2. Have you yet appealed to the parking company yet? [Y/N?] No

 

5.Who is the parking company? P4 Parking

 

6. where exactly did you park? On a double yellow line in Woolwich London. Land owned by Berkeley

 

I parked on the double yellow outside my child’s nursery, with my hazard lights on, as I have been doing for the past year and a half when the 5 allocated parking spaces are full; as all of the parents collecting their children do every day.

 

I always make sure that my parking is not causing a hazard or obstruction.

 

I feel it is worth mentioning that I did have an encounter with a parking warden outside the nursery some time ago when I parked on the double yellow with my wheels on the pavement.

 

The parking warden at the time told me off for having my wheels on the pavement but said I could park on any double yellow surrounding the nursery for 15 minutes (same amount of time allocated to the parking spaces) to collect my child.

 

On the 16.08.18 I was parked on the double yellow for no longer than 15 minutes.

As I exited the nursery I noticed a parking warden speaking to one of the parents and overheard the parent apologising.

 

I hot-footed it to my car, got my child inside and then drove off thinking he had not reached my car... only to discover, approx 3 minutes later, the PCN partially hidden below my windscreen.

 

I spoke with the concierge and they advised me to appeal, stating that there was nothing they could do about it themselves.

 

I was fuming and still am because I honestly don’t know what they expect parents to do if there are no available parking spaces.

I have to collect my child from the nursery by a certain time or risk being fined.

 

Is it worth me contacting Berkeley to see if they would cancel the ticket?

I feel that they have not produced sufficient provision for parent parking and then are penalising those who are left with no option but to park on the double yellow lines.

I’ve also considered speaking to the nursery but can imagine they’re not going to want to get involved.

 

Please can someone advise what you think my chances are of appealing and if I do have any, the best way to do it?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

NB. PCN attached.

978EE796-636A-40FD-8124-D1A602FEB350.jpg

Edited by dx100uk
spacing colour

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where does anything use the word fine?


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dx100uk i’m not following you. What are you referring to?

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Hi.

 

 

I think dx is trying to say that this looks like a private parking company penalty charge notice rather than a fine from someone official.

 

 

But I can't read your jpeg, it's too small. Could you re-save it as a pdf file please, so we can zoom in on the image?

 

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Thanks honeybee. PDF attached.

I also understand it to be a PCN from a parking company. Have I posted in the wrong place then? Or is this about the PCN not being valid/unenforceable because it’s on private land?

PDF Photos 2018-08-20.pdf

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Thank you for the pdf. So it's a private parking ticket and you're in the right forum. :)

 

 

I expect the forum regulars will be along later to advise you on what to do next.

 

 

HB


Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hi

It would help us if you give the exact location of where you parked. This helps us (me) look on Google Street View at the site to see what signs are in place. As it is, this is a Parking Charge and NOT a penalty charge so if P$ want to enforce the ticket, they would need to initiate court action. P4 only issue tickets to vehicles and don't use any other method.

 

 

Double Yellow Lines on Private land have no power.

 

 

I would wait for the Notice To Keeper (NTK) to arrive. Don't contact them at all until the NTK arrives


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agree with the above,

it is not a parking ticket but a demand for payment for a breach of contract or for monies due under a contractual condition.

 

That means they must offer you a contract in the first place and yellow lines on private land mean nothing unless they have a sign advertising what they are offering and what they expect in return for a licence to park.

So, just DYL's and no signage? jog on P4.

 

When you are next there take pictures of the signage that is thereabouts and make a note of exactly it was in relation to where you parked.

 

On the opposite side of the road may well not be good enough as your side will have different conditions if they want the paint job to be taken as being the same as on a public highway. they cant have it both ways.

Edited by dx100uk
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Cheers for the advice silverfox1961 & ericsbrother.

 

Location: 62 Duke of Wellington Avenue - if you get same image as I did just now, I parked exactly where the DPD van is. I will take pictures of the signage when I am next there and await the NTK.

 

Anyone think it would be worth contacting Berkeley (land owners) to request they cancel it?

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No, berkely are the ones who employed them, what you do is bother them if the parking cowboys threaten court and let them know that you may well sue them as the parking co are merely their agents and thus they are the ones breaking the law on data protection and so forth.

If you contact them now all they will do is say P4 have a job to do and they are doing what they agreed to so tough if you got caught out parking where they dont want you to.

 

 

Now, what you need to do is read more about the parking cowbiys and hold your nerve, nothing bad happens to those who see it through and dont say the wrong thing. This is more important than trying to say the right thing in the grand scheme of things

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Noted ericsbrother, will keep schtum.... for now.

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Just looked at the road in question and as I turned from Arsenal Way into Duke of Wellington Avenue and saw the DPD van.( Zeeba daycare! unusual name)

 

 

The images are from September 2017 so signage may have changed however, from what I saw, there was nothing to indicate that this road was private land nor did I see any signs offering any terms and conditions of parking.

 

 

I'm wondering if the parking bays along the road are the private land in question as I can see something there but not clearly enough to see. If so then the operative has overstepped their boundaries. Once we see the signs we can advise better


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just had a peep at the sign where the bay is and it isnt a contract so they cnat bill you for £100 for breaching it.

restrictions vary depending on location. Well what about there for example, nothing to say you are being offered a contract to park. Their other poxy signs are too small to read so not easy for themto claim they are offering anything for you to digest and agee on

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get some images of the signs including the ones about CCTV and any that are just street art as they are all part of what is being offered. P4 cant say they can pick and choose which are relevant, they all are so if they add up to confusion that isnt your doings it is theirs.

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Should be able to take some photos this evening.

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Woolwich Rd is the boundary of the development and you wont find a sign there on goggleyes, likewise I bet the same at Warren lane

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Ok, now I can read them the worse it gets for P4 as what they say both clashes with the wording of the Berkeley Homes signs in content and also the terms are not clear at all what with the signs being too small,half of the supposed core terms writtne in pale grey on white, th signs not being at the entrance to the land so you are not forewarned and so forth.

 

 

Now the fly in the ointment is that POPLA will just say that there were x signs and you should have read them so pay up but as we can see the signage is inadequate in its positioning and amount when considering the size of the development.

 

 

berkeley say no cars so that is a prohibition directly from the landlord and that means you cant then enter another contract with someone else because that would breach the LL orders. This means that it cant be said that the signage represents a genuine offer to park to begin with and that doesnt take into account all of the other problems.

 

 

I feel that appealing at all will we a waste of time but wait for the NTK anyways and you can then decide how you play this out

Edited by honeybee13
Paras

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Thanks ericsbrother, i’m with you for most of what you said. Just a couple of things that i’m not clear on.

 

With regards to “no cars” are you referring to the sign which says “restricted vehicle access ahead to residents only”?

 

Also, are you saying that POPLA could argue that I should not have parked there because the signs do not provide a genuine offer to park? Or are you saying that the offer to park is not provided by the signage when it should be?

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As I see it, the sign stating “restricted vehicle access ahead to residents only” suggests that parking restrictions are in force from some distance from the sign, not immediately in front of the sign so confusion reigns supreme.

 

 

I would suggest that the restricted area starts from where the Berkeley sign starts and where the double yellows end. If that is the case, P4 are acting outside of their remit and should be challenged. If the lines are included as part of the restriction, tough! They have no relevance on private land.

 

 

With the signs stating that there is the ability to park for no longer than 15 minutes, did you register your vehicle at the pharmacy? From those signs it looks like there are three spaces after the hatched area (Car Club)


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also DYL are taken as a sign of prohibition so you cant agree to not park there and create a contarct to park there. In short the only way you can agree to their terms is to break them and that isnt a proper contract and the sum demanded becomes an unenforceable penalty just like the DUNLOP case

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@silverfox I believe the restricted area the sign refers to is the area after the barrier further up the road, i.e. just beyond the DHL van on google maps. Have also attached a photo of the barrier, taken today.

Are you suggesting that the sign implies non-permit holders need to approach the pharmacy to register their vehicle? There are about 5-6 spaces after the car club area.

 

@ ericsbrother please can you explain what contract to park you are referring to?

PDF Photos R. Arsenal barrier.pdf

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On the assumption that the DYL are part of Berkeleys private land, by parking in an area that is prohibited you are committing the 'offence' of trespass and as such only the landowner can take action. if the DYL are not part of the private land then P4 are operating beyond their remit which is a no-no.

 

On DYL anywhere you can get a PENALTY charge (usually from the council) which is enforceable. All P4 can do is issue the PARKING charge which can only be enforced if they took you to court.

 

 

By the way, I had a look on the Greenwich Council Planning Portal and I could find no planning permission for any of the signs along the road and if that IS true (not hidden away in a different planning application) then you cannot be held liable as the signs are illegally placed. It is possible that Berkeley applied for permission and I can't find it but I definitely cannot see any applications for P4.

 

 

 

I also thought that the area that was barrier controlled was the land in question but if so, why place the signs so far back?

 

 

With the parking spaces when dropping off or collecting the rugrats, I saw two signs by the wall which covered three spaces. That is why I said what I did.


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it is private land, council has confirmed Berkeley are the landowners. Paint job meaningless and they clearly agree if they say you have entered into a contract by way of parking there.

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