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    • ok looks like that's what you need to do. but keep it bare bones for now as post 5  
    • stuff and all if there no signed agreement in the return   dx  
    • 1st again why do you keep changing things before you send them   you've added counterclaim in to our std CPR 31:14 you sent? why? this opens you up to additional costs and I hope you didnt tick counterclaim when you did AOS on mcol too?   also I notice you've  played with our std OD defence above too...   pers I would refrain from continuing to change things as they are written in the frain they are for specific reasons.   your defence is due by 4pm Monday [day 33]   here are 2 versions you will ofcourse need to adapt them to lowells para no's and remove the NOA stuff as your docs show Lowell have complied with those. but don't forget to mention other documents provided to date notably statements contain no proof they came from Lloyds but rather Lowells own internal data system    dx   1. It is admitted with regards to the Defendant entering into an Agreement referred to in the Particulars of Claim ('the Agreement') with the [insert original creditor] . .  2. The defendant denies that the account exceeded the agreed overdraft limit due to overdrawing of funds but is as a result of unfair and extortionate bank charges/penalties being applied to the account. .  3. I refute the claimants claim is owed or payable. The amount claimed is comprised of amongst others default penalties/charges levied on the account for alleged late, missed or over limit payments. The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 The Office of Fair Trading v Abbey National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety. .  4. It is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer crediticon Act 1974. The Claimant has yet to provide a copy of the Notice of Assignment its claim relies upon. .  5. The claimant is denied from added section 69 interest within the total claimed that as yet to be decided at the courts discretion. .  6. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed. .  The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-. .  (a) Provide a copy agreement/facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception, that this claim is based on.  (b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.  (c) Provide a breakdown of their excessive charging/fees levied to the account with justification.  (d) Show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.  (e) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.  (f) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct. .  7. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request dated [xxxxxxx] namely the Agreement and Termination Demand Notice referred to in the claimants Particulars of Claim. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request. .  By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief. .  .............. or  Particulars of Claim  1.The claim is for the sum of 2470.56 in respect of monies owing pursuant to an overdraft facility under account number XXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX.  2.The debt was legally assigned by Santander UK Plc to the claimant and notice has been served.   3.The Defendant has failed to repay overdrawn sums owing under the terms and conditions of the bank account.   The Claimant claims:  The sum of 2470.56 Interest pursuant to s69 of the county courticon Act 1984 at a rate of 8.00 percent from the 7/04/2015 to the date hereof 14 days is the sum of 7.58Daily interest at the rate of .54  Costs Defence  The Defendant contends that the particulars of the claim are vague and generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.   1. It is admitted with regards to the Defendant once having had banking facilities with the original creditor Santander Bank. It is denied that I am indebted for any alleged balance claimed.   2. Paragraph 2 is denied.I am not aware or ever receiving any Notice of Assignment pursuant to the Law and Property Act 1925. It is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer crediticon Act 1974. The Claimant has yet to provide a copy of the Notice of Assignment its claim relies upon.   3. Paragraph 3 is denied. The Original Creditor has never served notice pursuant to 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974  Any alleged amount claimed could only consist in the main of default penalties/charges levied on the account for alleged late, rejected or over limit payments. The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 The Office of Fair Trading v Abbeyicon National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety.  4. As per Civil Procedureicon Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.  The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-.  (a) Provide a copy agreement/overdraft facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception that this claim is based on.  (b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.  (c) Provide a breakdown of all excessive charging/fees and show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.   (d) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.  (e) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct.  5. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request dated April 2015 namely the Agreement and Termination Demand Notice referred to in the claimants Particulars of Claim. The Claimant has failed to comply with this request.   By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.  Regards  Andy    
    • Hi   Just read your thread and looked at the Docs posted in your PDF.   1. from AST to rent a Car Parking space you need to have signed a Car Parking Agreement for a Space and for visitors you should have asked permission for another space in advance with a fee to pay. (i also assume renting a parking space would be at a cost)   2. You have no signed Car Parking Agreement nor visitor space agreement.   Did you not fully read that AST before you signed it and pick up what is stated about parking and ask them about this Car Parking Agreement and if you need one to park in the car park?   You could formally complain to them about what was verbally said to you but unless you have evidence of this it may be hard to prove.   You should also contact them and ask how you go about renting a Car Parking space/costs and about the Car Parking Agreement also what the process is for a visitor car parking space/costs.   You need to be aware that they could class you and your visitor as illegally parking in there car park without consent nor a signed car parking agreement which they could use as a Breach of your Tenancy Agreement so you need to be careful in how you are approaching this and where you are parking.   Just for info on checking Manchester Life website they have numerous buildings/apartments/car parks but you may be in a building where some of the apartments are leasehold and as part of there leasehold they may have purchased a car parking space in that building. (so how do you know you are not parking in a space that someone in the building has legally purchased?)
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unclebulgaria67

Interesting HR question

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This concerns someone I know.

 

They have been subject to bullying and victimisation by supervisor and line manager over a period of months.

 

This was flagged up to department managers, who have recognised the issues. They have witnessed some of behaviours and others have reported incidents that have happened. Department Managers have now had half a dozen complaints about the behaviour of the supervisor and line manager concerned.

 

The departments managers have said that unless my friend makes a formal complaint using the grievance procedures that exist, that they can't do anything. My friend has health/vulnerability issues that make this difficult, as the process involved may cause additional stress they want to avoid.

 

The question is whether Department Managers with HR responsibilities can hide behind having a grievance procedure, to avoid taking actions, when they have enough evidence of a pattern of behaviour that should be sufficient to act upon.

 

My HR training as a Manager was that I did not need to receive a complaint under the grievance procedure to act. That I could commence disciplinary procedures based on information I had received or bevaviours I had witnessed.

 

What is the correct legal position in such situations ? What are the consequences for Managers that fail to act, once they are made aware of conduct that could be considered bullying or victimisation ?


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The law isn't clear on this. Technically, they ought too do something about it. But it's a quandary because the only way to highlight that they have not done something is... to submit a grievance. Without going into whether the allegations are true, because what is described as bullying isn't always (and victimisation, in law, only relates to specific types of claims such as discrimination), on technical grounds it could be argued that they are failing to protect the well-being and health/ safety of employees. But SOMEBODY had to make that complaint. There's no watchdog, as such, that will swoop in and save the day. And if someone has to make a complaint, it may as well be about the accrual allegation, not about them not doing anything!

 

So you are correct on technical grounds - if you believe that something is wrong you do not have to have a formal complaint to act upon the situation. But there is no way of forcing someone to act. And given the part of the definition of bullying is that a person believes it to be bullying, if the victim doesn't report it, then it could be argued that they don't regard it as bullying. I'd have to be honest and say that I would be quite savage in defending a member who was accused of bullying without any evidence of it! And I have certainly come across situations where the "victim" hasn't perceived something as bullying when others have - erroneously in some cases. So it isn't anywhere near clear cut. And no investigation could possibly take place without involving the victim, who at some point must speak up.

 

The correct legal position is that there isn't one! If there's no complaint then it can't go to law! And I'd have to say that it is highly unlikely there would be any consequences for managers failing to respond to something that can be argued to not exist!

 

Someone needs to make a formal complaint. Preferably the victim because whether they complain or not, they will be interviewed and they must say what had happened if they allege bullying. If they won't say anything, then I'm afraid that there is no bullying - and whilst it may seem unfair at one level, it isn't. The alleged perpetrators also have rights, and that includes entitled to see and hear the evidence against them. If it's all third hand reports from people unwilling to go formal, and the alleged victim refuses to confirm the complaints, then that person is innocent! You can't "convict" someone based on hearsay and no complaints. Well you can, but it wouldn't hold up to scrutiny.

 

If your friend had problems, and these constitute a disability, it is possible that a reasonable adjustment could be to have some form of support put in place to enable them to complain. Some employers will allow this anyway for such allegations. But honestly, in the end, they have to stand up for themselves.

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Sangie, thanks for the long considered response. Was hoping that you would reply.

 

The employer concerned is public sector, with clear policies on responsibilities to safegard health & wellbeing of staff, report bullying etc.

 

To my knowledge several instances have been documented already, meetings held about them. Complaints have also been been filed with managers by independent members of staff who happened to witness acts of bullying.

 

From what I understand managers won't act, unless the victim makes a complaint, which I have told them to do so. They are a member of a union, so could get advice if they required it.

 

If I were me as manager and I had witnessed some of the described bullying, I would have held disciplinary conduct meetings documenting everything, with assistance of HR. Then see where it led, after going through everything properly.


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Nope, you couldn't have done that. YOU would have been the complainant, so you couldn't complain, investigate and hold a disciplinary meeting! I hate to say this, but I'd have to call it 50/50. If the alleged victim hasn't complained, then there is no victim. No victim, no bullying. Perception is a big factor in bullying - one person's bullying is another person's management. If I don't think I'm being bullied, then what you think isn't relevant. Let's suppose that the person gets sacked and at the tribunal the alleged victim says they weren't bullied? Whoops, now it's a conspiracy to bully that individual, false testimony, and unfair dismissal!

 

Bullying is one of the hardest situations to deal with. The variables are limitless, the definition all about feelings and not just facts. And it rarely ends well for anyone. But if they are in a union, that's the place to go. There are possible alternatives if they would prefer not to complain. But only the union would know how viable they are, and almost certainly it would mean the victim gets redeployed. It shouldn't be like that, but it's seldom the other way around. And in all honesty, it is often for the best, as starting often isn't practicable.

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There are actions which are not a disciplinary which can happen with no complaint.

 

Department manager gets butt down to the coal face and observes

Gives feedback on acceptable behaviour

Provides coaching / training until that is achieved


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Thanks for the replies. On reflection, yes I think for a complaint to be addressed, the victim needs to put up or shut up. Sounds a bit harsh, but if they are not going to pursue a complaint, they can't expect others to do it for them.

 

It is up to the managers to deal with the issues mentioned under standard performance management procedures.


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Thanks for the replies. On reflection, yes I think for a complaint to be addressed, the victim needs to put up or shut up. Sounds a bit harsh, but if they are not going to pursue a complaint, they can't expect others to do it for them.

 

It is up to the managers to deal with the issues mentioned under standard performance management procedures.

 

Yes, and I would agree with Emmzzi. Albeit, given in this case it appears to be the immediate managers who are the problem, a manager can act short of disciplinary processes without much more than their own concerns, and try to intervene. Obviously, the problem is that if the alleged perpetrator isn't receptive to the allegation, then it simply goes back intro that circle of going back to the victim.

 

There is a lot of truth to the put up or shut up, I'm afraid. In the bad old days, when I was a girl, the standard response was that if a bully hit you, you hit them back but harder. It always worked! The moral of the story being that bullies pick their victims. Oddly, nobody has tried bullying me since, well, actually, ever. When I was a slip of a girl, Jimmy bullied my friend Sandra. So I hit him for her! Fists may not solve problems... but they solved that one! Often, just the bearing of a person marks them for bullying. And in the end, they will always be a victim, if not of bullying, of something, if they don't learn to stand up for themselves.

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