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    • Hi,   Someone who isn't me (SWIM) bought a parking ticket for a car park whilst on holiday paid the correct fee input their car reg went to the shops and then left in their vehicle within the required timeframe. The car park operates ANPR and a few weeks later SWIM received a PCN despite having followed all the rules of the car park. The parking company is saying that they have no record of a payment for SWIMs car. SWIM wrote to the parking company explaining that they paid and followed all the rules of the car park however the parking company replied with a standard template letter and are now adding more to their PCN and threatening court action. Unfortunately before receiving the PCN SWIMs partner threw the parking ticket away as part of cleaning out the car after the holiday.     The parking company has pictures of SWIMs car entering and leaving the car park but is saying that no number plate was entered into their machine. This is not correct the number plate was definitely inputted and the fee paid in cash. The car park is in a shocking state of disrepair and there have been several cases of the company issuing PCNs due to their own faulty equipment.     The parking company have taken people to court before and lost. However, the defendants in those cases had their tickets as proof of payment. If SWIM is taken to court their argument would be that the private parking company's (PPC) equipment must have been faulty and that the only evidence the PPC has is the car driving into and out of the carpark.  They have no real evidence of no payment. In fact CCTV footage would show a payment has been made, furthermore there were no other cars in the nearly derelict car park so if a payment was registered on the machine but not a number plate that would have to be SWIMs.    Dose SWIM no longer having a ticket ruin their chance of winning if this ends up in court? SWIM is prepared to take it to court if needed.   Are there any similar cases of people winning in court despite no longer having their parking ticket?   
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frankiesays

HX/Gladstones ANPR PCN Claimform - Damside Street Car Park, Damside Street

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My son visits a local car park to pick up a manager of a local business adjacent to the car park,

takes her to Bookers Cash & Carry and then brings her back to the same car park with the few items she has purchased for the business.

 

The car park backs on to the rear entrance of her business and there is an HX Car Parking notice there which says it is OK to stay for up to 10 mins without a requirement to pay for a ticket.

 

After one of these occasions he received a parking charge notice from HX accompanied by a photo of his car entering the car park on his first vist and another of his car leaving the car park on his second visit, total duration 79 minutes.

 

He was only there for a few mins on the first visit and the same on the second which is within the rules stated.

 

The charge was £120 or pay now for £60.

We thought this was a simple ANPR technical error and wrote to HX stating this and advised them to re-examine their photos and find the two missing pictures of him leaving and returning which would be the solution to the issue - no response except for another letter stating that the charge had gone up to £125 (not the £120 stated?).

 

We wrote again with the same explanation with no response except for a further letter from their solicitors (Gladstones) giving one last chance to pay the full charge.

 

Upon research I find that HX, Gladstones and their arbitration service are all part of the same group and operating a cash generating machine.

 

We ignored that letter and have now received a county court claim form inviting him to give a response before being taken to court.

 

Any advice appreciated on how to proceed with this.

Do I need to get him a solicitor and if so can I counter-claim for the expense?

 

Is there any way of derailing this procedure before it reaches court?:mad2:

Edited by dx100uk
Spacing charge/penalty change

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as someone has now received a claim form they had better acknowledge the service of this and then they buy another fortnight to put a defence together.

Is the person who accepted the lift happy to attend court as a witness?

If so then your son is home and dry as far as evidence goes.

 

As the car park backs on to her business is there a right of way over the land.

either expressed or by use of the access for a period of at least 8 years?.

 

If so then there is a thing called an easement and neither the landowner nor HX can take that away, only a court order.

 

So name the exact piece of land and we will offer comment based on what we can see from satellite and streetvioew pictures.

If permission to cross the land has been given that trumps HX terms anyway even though no right has been created

Edited by dx100uk
spacing

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I have attached a photo taken today which shows the pathway which leads from the main road to the rear of the premises in question.

 

It is not possible to park on the road as there are double yellow lines, no loading and it is opposite the entrance to the bus station hence the use of the car park.

 

My son reversed to the posts separating the pathway from the carpark, he would have been blocking in the last few cars hence unloading very quickly, keeping his engine running and not parking in a marked bay.

 

The boxes were taken through the gateway in the wall behind the blue bins, this process took less than 2 mins.

 

Also attached is a photo taken today showing or implying that you are not going to be prosecuted unless you park in the car park for more than 10 mins without getting a ticket.

 

Here is the car park entrance picture in case the first one does not show.

 

OK, it looks like I've been posting these pictures incorrectly so heres a PDF of all of them, they should be self explanatory but the long oblong notice is the one posted at the entrance to the car park which really is pivotal to this case in that it gives the impression that it is OK to be present in the car park for up to 10 mins with no requirement to pay during that time.

PIX and PCN.pdf

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so now we know where is it and can you show us the entrance to the land from the public highway.

 

These things are common on all threads so you had better read a good few of them so you get a better understanding of what we expect.

 

Also, as you are playing chinese whispers it would be aoppropriate if the person being sued took over this thread so there are no misunderstandings and no delays.

 

Also we will need to see the NTK sent through the post as you are saying that the time there is lessthan the grace period. Evidence from their cameras on the NTK will the kill their claim

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Here is a picture of the car park entrance and the pedestrian footpath to the business in question against the wall on the far left.

 

This is a Google picture so please ignore any signage as this is an old picture but the geography is accurate

 

Not sure if that photo loaded correctly.

 

What is the NTK?

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Name of the Claimant : HX Car Park Management Limited, 161 Preston Rd, Lytham St Anns, FY8 5AY.

claimants Solicitors: Gladstones Solicitors Limited, The Terrace, High Legh Park, Warrington Rd, WA16 6AA

 

Date of issue – 6th August 2018

Date to submit - September 7th 2018

 

What is the claim for –

 

 

1.The driver of the vehicle registration XXXXXXX (the "vehicle") incurred the parking charge(s) on 16/02/2018 for breaching the terms of parking on the land at Damside Street Car Park, Damside Street

 

2.The defendant was driving the vehicle and/or is the keeper of the vehicle.

3.AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS £160 for parking charges/damages and indemnity costs if applicable, together with interest of £4.21 pursuant to s69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at 8% pa, continuing to Judgement at £0.04 per day.

 

What is the value of the claim : £239.21

 

Has the claim been issued by the Private parking Company or was the PCN assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim ? - Claim has been issued by Gladstones Solicitors on behalf of HX.

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? - Gladstones sent a "Letter before claim" on June 5th stating that they had been asked to act on behalf of HX and a second letter before claim was sent on 19th July.

There was no NTK as the car was not parked and was attended at all times.

They sent a PCN advising that the offence had been committed due to the car being picked out on the ANPR system with no matching parking ticket.

 

So do I need to be sending off the Acknowledgement of service form now citing

1. I wish to defend all of this claim?

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pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.

.

register as an individual

note the long gateway number given

then log in

.

select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.

.

then using the details required from the claimform

.

defend all

leave jurisdiction unticked.

click thru to the end

confirm and exit MCOL.

.

get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486334-CPR-31.14-Request-to-use-on-receipt-of-a-PPC-(-Private-Land-Parking-Court-Claim)

.

type your name ONLY

 

no need to sign anything

.

you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.

you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform.

 

 

……

 

as for the NTK[PCN]

it was an ANPR capture

they must have sent that with 14days of the offence

why did you not get it?

 

thread tidied

all pix now in post 4


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ah right the PCN [NTK] you did get its in you pic

I've redacted it properly for you

don't want the little monkies knowing you are here do we...


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The ANPR pictures are on the Parking Charge Notice which was sent to me on 21st Feb which was 5 days after the alledged offence. A picture of this is in the PDF of pics I sent in earlier.

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Complete post 9 now


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Do as DX says, get the claim defended.


We could do with some help from you.

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thanks for all your help with this it is much appreciated. I have a 04:30 start tomorrow so will get 9 completed when I finish tomorrow.

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Their NTK isnt complaint with the POFA as they dont state who the creditor is and that means they arent entitled to demand money from anyone, let alone the keeper.

 

The big sign at the entrance doesnt say anything about charging you a penny over the prescribed fee and you dont have to accept tghe other signs as they are not part of the original offer.

 

Now the NTK says that the car was ther for over an hour and that doesnt tally with your assertion for being there for 2 minutes.

 

Is this a case of 2 visits being rolled up into one or is the driver not telling you the entire story. If the latter the claim can still be fought but it will rely on more lengthy methods to defend.

 

reason I say that is because most "double dippings" are hours apart.

 

Having evidence of being elsewhere between the events will help enormously, as will the evidence of the person who was picked up and dropped off.

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This was definitely a double visit - see my introductory post.

 

Each visit was only a few minutes, the main sign by the entrance suggests that it is permitted to visit for 10 mins without obligation to pay?

 

Just one question before I action #9.

 

You suggest registering as an individual on MCOL site

- I have been given a password with which to log in with on the Claim Form received.

 

Should I avoid using that or should i use that password as it has been given to me by the County Court Business Centre?

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you do as post 9 you cant do anything else


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and get the cpr running ...time is ticking!! this is day 8

you only have a total of 33 days to get a defence in..


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Do as instructed in Post# 9 do it now not tomorrow not next week but RIGHT NOW. Otherwise you are in danger of getting a DEFAULT CCJ WHICH WILL SCREW YOU OVER FOR 6 YEARS.


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Get on with it

 

 

this was definitely a double visit - see my introductory post.

 

Each visit was only a few minutes, the main sign by the entrance suggests that it is permitted to visit for 10 mins without obligation to pay?

 

Just one question before i action #9.

 

You suggest registering as an individual on mcol site

- i have been given a password with which to log in with on the claim form received.

 

Should i avoid using that or should i use that password as it has been given to me by the county court business centre?

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MCOL web site response completed last night and CPR 31:14 request running.

 

I now need to put together a defence.

Is this the only chance I get or do I just need to do the basics via the "Defence" form included with the claim form?

 

Do I need to include witness statement and photos of signage at this stage or is that something for the court?

 

I have plenty to send but read somewhere on line that it needs to be very basic and succinct otherwise it won't get read prior to the court appearance.

 

What would you suggest?

It has been pointed out that the signage is not correct,

do I point that out at this stage?

Edited by dx100uk
Spacing

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2 line basic def

Filed again via mcol

Forget about the paper n1 pack now

 

Lots of time

Get reading claimform threads here


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we recommend using the bare bones of what you want to rely on so basic

"no contract offered so cant be a claim for breach" type thing allows you to add loads of detail later whereas if you put a specific it cant be this then you are stuck with arguing just that point and wont be able to add anything that differs from that.

 

What you shouldnt rely on as a stand alone is the argument that they have not followed procedure as that is like turning up to a swordfight without a sword and then saying the other side is cheating.

 

By all means give a long list of everything they have done wrong procedurally if you wish but that is going to be point 2 of your defence after you show some substantial reason why you dont owe them in the first place

 

MCOL web site response completed last night and CPR 31:14 request running.

 

I now need to put together a defence.

Is this the only chance I get or do I just need to do the basics via the "Defence" form included with the claim form?

 

Do I need to include witness statement and photos of signage at this stage or is that something for the court?

 

I have plenty to send but read somewhere on line that it needs to be very basic and succinct otherwise it won't get read prior to the court appearance.

 

What would you suggest?

It has been pointed out that the signage is not correct,

do I point that out at this stage?

Edited by honeybee13
Paras

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I am about to put in my defence, yes I know time is getting on too.

I have taken fresh pictures of the signage as the previous ones were poor.

 

The lady who was picked up and dropped off in the double visit to the car park does now not wish to get involved in this which is a pity as her evidence would have been really helpful.

 

Bookers cannot provide any CCTV footage (asked back in Feb.) because the sun is on the camera at that time of the year so footage is useless, the manager of the business for which the Booker visit was made (several other visits from same location too) cannot provide the invoice/receipt pertaining to that visit as he says the paperwork is at the accountants for his end of year, he probably just can't be bothered but the outcome is that same.

 

all we have is our claim that two visits were made to the car park during the 79 minute period in question and the signage in the car park which says "Any vehicle/driver remaining in this car park 10 minutes after entry is subject to and agrees in full to the terms and conditions" This implies to me that the terms and conditions do not apply for the first 10 mins so should I assume that should be the basis of my defence?

 

I have researched ANPR and providers of those systems state that for their systems to be able to spot a number plate (prior to reading it) the gap into/out of the car park should be no more than the width of a car and a half - the width of entry into thie car park concerned is actually 14 feet.

 

They also state that cameras should ideally be placed at ground level to prevent number plates being obscured by a following car and should definitely be at no more than 30 degrees to the entry exit point.

 

Th e cameras in question are mounted high up at the back of the car park and in my estimation greater than 30 degrees.

Should I mention this at this stage?

Should I provide pictures at the stage showing the "less than 10 mins" statment at this stage?

Anything else.

 

I have looked at lots of defences against parking tickets but have yet to find one for a double visit such as this.

Edited by dx100uk
swear word changed

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read post 23 again


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