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    • OK - thank you. I understand the concept of LIP, and the need to keep my claim as simple and straightforward as possible. The legal arguments presented in what I called my skeleton statement were already in the original template I downloaded from this site. In that document I opened with "I am not proposing to set out the sequence of events." Might it be worthwhile for me to include a very brief timeline at that point, which would perhaps then allow it to become my witness statement? Or do you consider two separate documents are required? 
    • BF do you know where the instruction for skeleton has come from? Its just WX + docs. Do you think a skeleton is needed if the only issue in dispute is the legality of the exclusion terms. it seems excessive as well as wx no?   ah yes good point with LIP wx format i didnt think about the LIP judge softhand 
    • And incidentally, the really important part of this is that when you go to court, you are totally thorough and fluent not only with the facts – but with the effect of the legal points you are arguing. The facts are broadly not in dispute but the legal effect for instance of either having insurance or not having insurance. Of requiring insurance – these are the things you need to understand fully. Preparing your court bundle and eventually refining it bit by bit is terrific revision for you and will put you in control but also understanding its content fully and being fluent with its pages in the position of every point you are making is also essential.
    • Skeleton argument/witness statement – it's just a matter of terminology and we don't need to make an issue of it. Actually the three-page document that you have posted first of all and which you have called skeleton argument – is a witness statement which would be attached to the bundle which would be part of your indexed court bundle. I haven't looked at it in detail get or how it supports your claim or how it addresses any of the points made in the defence. I'll have to do that in the next two or three days. But for the moment, it looks fine. You have posted a second document which you are describing as an anonymized witness statement and as far as I can see, I agree with Cagger @jk2054 that much of your circle witness statement is a bit of a waffle and contains irrelevant information that you haven't remedied it in your final version which you say is chopped up. Also, you have received a suggestion of a template from Cagger @jk2054 and although this is going to be confusing for you, I don't think you should bother to use it. It is far too formal. You are a litigant in person and you need the flexibility of fully informing but informal documents which is what we are providing you with. We are suggesting models which we have been using over many cases and they all succeed in some them have been, complemented by the judge for the effectiveness and their clarity. You are litigant in person and one of the things you need to do is you need to have the judge on your side and helping you if necessary and this means that you don't want to start acting or talking or writing as if you are some kind of lawyer – you aren't. Being a litigant personage a certain sort of leverage and you should exploit that. The templates that we are suggesting to you are still not the templates that a completely un-advised person would use but they are still thorough. Stick to them. I suggest that you follow the advice given by the site team here and avoid confusion by switching horses. So for the moment I would suggest that you stick to your original skeleton argument – which follows the format that we have been using on this forum. We do like to see the fully prepared bundle please. I think there should be a next step. Have you got hearing date? Have you got a date for filing your bundle? In fact I have just looked back and I see that your filing date is 8 July. That's fine
    • First of all – as has already been pointed out to you, this is not a defect in the usual way that we understand and so that means that you don't need to rely on your 30 day and six months rights to reject. You can get MOT test done and it turns out to be an MOT failure for any reason then you have the added weight that they have is sold you an unroadworthy vehicle. Who did the existing MOT? I have a sense that it was big motoring world themselves in which case this would give you even greater leverage that if you have an MOT fail and it seems fairly clear that the reason for the failure is something which existed for some time that that would also cast doubt over the MOT provided by big motoring world and this would be even more serious. In any event, the vehicle is not as described and I think that this is an immediate ground for cancelling the policy and even better than that I think it would be a good ground for resisting any deduction made for mileage used – although we will have to deal with as it comes. I have read on Facebook that big motoring world tend to insist on quite a big deduction per mile and I have a sense that they do this because they know they can get away with it because they know their customers are really just happy to get rid of the vehicle any cost. You have told us you've got to a position where they seem to have agreed that you have now drawn a blank and they are being obstructive. Maybe you can lay out a bullet point chronology of exactly what has happened so far – point by point. I don't think you've told us how much you pay for the vehicle and also we want to know a list of the other expenses to which you been put including insurance et cetera and if you cancel the insurance how much you are likely to lose. How long is it not been driven? Why is it not been driven by your son? Didn't you planned for the more expensive insurance premium before you bought it? I have a sneaking suspicion that maybe you bought it and then was surprised at how expensive it was and are now finding a reason to return it. Please be completely level with us and tell us if this forms part of your reason for wanting to return it. We need to know everything – straight dealing – so we can help you in the best way possible. Otherwise we will have surprises sprung on us and we will all be embarrassed and you may lose. In fact I see that we don't know anything about the current all – make, model, mileage, or price paid which have already asked you about. Any reason that we don't have these very basic and obvious details without having to ask for them? You refer to the two new runflat tyres – why? Are these new ones which came with the car or these new ones which you had to buy and if so why did you have to buy them and how much they cost. It will be nice not to have to cross-examine your every detail. It will save a lot of time. Please have a look at this post carefully, discern the questions and address each one please.
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    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 

      Many thanks 
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    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.


      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like

Select Energy pretending to be NPower on business supply.

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Can anyone give me some advice on how to deal with a new contract I've been spoofed into by Select Energy with NPower.


I recently moved into a new shop premises and unfortunately before the process was entirely complete,

the agent died so I had no knowledge of who the energy supplier was.


I was in the process of trying to find out when I received a phone call from someone who gave me the impression that they were from NPower and that they were my energy supplier.


I was relieved initially because I'd been struggling to find out who the supplier was and he told me that until I'd registered my details I was being charged an emergency high rate which would be reduced once I'd given my details.

For some reason I found this plausible !


At no point during the conversation was I told that he was setting up a new contract or that he was an agent,

he gave me the impression entirely that he was the supplier and was just updating new tenant details.

I asked to be billed quarterly and specifically said I didn't want to pay by direct debit.


The alarm bells should have rung when he asked for the bank details I said I was uncomfortable giving the details but he assured me it was only to confirm I was who I was claiming to be and that there wouldn't be any payments taken from the bank.


A couple of weeks later I received a letter from NPower telling me that I was now in a 36 month contract and they would be taking £195 a month by direct debit. The previous tenant from what I understand was paying less than £50 and the supplier was British Gas.

I was utterly misled


when I phoned to question NPower I discovered I was actually on the phone to Select Energy who I had never heard of.

When I did eventually get through to NPower I was told I was in a binding 36month contract and there was nothing I can do.

Surely this is fraudulent.

Any advice would be incredibly welcome.

Edited by dx100uk
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Hi and welcome to CAG



As far as my checks have gone, Select Energy are part of BES utilities and BES were sanctioned in 2015 by OFGEM for exactly this reason. It may be that Select has been spun off from BES but I can't find any info so this is based on them still being part of BES







Firstly, stay off the phone and deal with this in writing. A formal complaint is the first thing I would do and give them the required 8 weeks to respond. (I am assuming you are a small business). Make sure that you insist that the recording of the call be maintained in its entirety as it has been suggested that they have edited phone calls to make it look like you have agreed to the contract.



The outcome of this is that you want to leave without penalty as if you try to do it any other way, they will block the transfer. Whatever you do, do not stop paying the bills whilst the dispute is ongoing.



There is also the fact that BES are selling up (if not completed already) This from Companies House. Go to filing history and read the links




If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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yes BES in sheeps clothing.


go get 'em!!

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 7 months later...

the plus side is that they will need a recording of their calls to show a contract exists by offer and aceptance. that same recording will also prove they lied to gain a pecuniary advantage so will do for them.

You need to speak to NPower and tell them what has happened and how these bandits were representing themselves as servants on NPower ( use that term as it means  somehting different to agent) and see what they say about it all.

The plus side is if you do get offered a better deal and take it the cowboys wont really want to take you to court as it will reveal their dark practices

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  • dx100uk changed the title to Select Energy pretending to be NPower on business supply.
19 hours ago, ericsbrother said:

the plus side is that they will need a recording of their calls to show a contract exists by offer and aceptance. that same recording will also prove they lied to gain a pecuniary advantage so will do for them.

You need to speak to NPower and tell them what has happened and how these bandits were representing themselves as servants on NPower ( use that term as it means  somehting different to agent) and see what they say about it all.

The plus side is if you do get offered a better deal and take it the cowboys wont really want to take you to court as it will reveal their dark practices

Sadly the recordings will be edited to demonstrate that the customer gives their details and says yes to the contract.  None of the recording prior to agreeing to the contract is kept as there is no need which is why BES get away with it.  TBH this company should have been closed years ago by the limp wristed Ombudsman!

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On 22/03/2019 at 15:20, P60 said:

Good afternoon,

I'd be very interested to receive any further information or an update on the issue raised by Dylan 12 above, as I'm afraid I've fallen into the same trap. My daughter took on a commercial premises in October 18 and having initially struggled to find out who the existing electricity provider was,  we made contact with the provider and gave our details. Having not received a bill or any further communication for some time we eventually received a recorded  "Notice of Deemed Contract" letter advising us that we needed to contact them as the new tenant, which despite having already done this we duly did and after some discussion it was agree that the sales team would give us call to move us off the higher rate tariff that had been implemented or assist us in changing suppliers if need be.


Shortly after this conversation .... same day...we received a call from Select Energy advising us that as the new tenants they were contact us with a view to ensuring we were on the most competitive package, which of course on the back of the previous conversation with the existing provider seemed perfectly plausible as we were indeed advised to expect such a call. ... I now know that Selects Energy's call just so happened to be bad timing for us ...good timing for them...and we have entered into a verbal contract, having agreed to a fixed three year contract with NPower, who we were advised were the most competitive.


Minutes later we received a further call from our "Account manager"  who advised my daughter of her name, gave a contact number  (01253 708955) and advise us that we should speak to her only on that number in future.  The tone of that call raised suspicions, which of course were confirmed as soon as we did a check on the number.


We're currently waiting for the Welcome Pack and written contact details, but having read a raft of horror stories from others, am now very anxious indeed as I don't believe the rates indicated over the phone will be adhered to and that there are in fact better deals available. Having researched such verbal contracts and various Ofgem articles, I understand the contract is binding and there is no cooling off period.


Any assistance to remove ourselves from this situation and distance ourselves from Select Energy would be greatly appreciated, or at the very least who we should be contacting in addition to yourselves to raise awareness of this practice and try to bring additional legal action against this BES spin off, who seem  to be simply carrying on where they left off after the above Ofgem ruling.




P.S..this happened just yesterday 21-03-19










On 22/03/2019 at 20:26, dx100uk said:

please create your own topic from the link uptop


37 minutes ago, P60 said:

I'm yet to receive the "welcome pack" but in the meantime have discovered yet further worrying reports of the unit price being charged at much higher rates than quoted, does anyone have an indication of what the unit price is likely to actually be..?

We may be able to help you but you have been asked to start your own topic on this please.

It is very important that you start your own topic so that your story is not confused with somebody else's.

Please will you do this. I'm afraid that we have no other information relating to the owner of this thread: Dylan12. That person has not come back to the forum to tell us what has happened or if they have resolved the problem.

I'm afraid this happens all too often and it leaves people in a bit of a lurch because nobody knows what's going on all the best course of action.

Please start your own thread. And also update us as it goes along.

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