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Hi everybody. Love this forum and thank you so much in advance for any help. I've tried my best to dig deep here and elsewhere as to make this as easy as possible for you to advise on.

 

A bailiff took my car this morning for an unpaid moving traffic PCN with an overall fee of £513 for release. The PCN was sent to my old address days before I moved house. I appealed from the new address (putting my new address on the form) and followed up via email (again informing of my new address) to ask the status of the appeal and received no correspondence. I updated my driving licence with the DVLA days after the move but – as seems common on this forum – not my V5C (which I have done now just two weeks ago but not at the time of the PCN or subsequent appeal in October 2017).

 

I have downloaded the PE2 and PE3 forms to take to Barnet County Court tomorrow morning (I booked an appointment for 10am) to have witnessed and then sent to TEC. I would love any feedback on the below proposed PE2 statement for "reasons" and also any insight as to what might happen next. Does it look all right?

 

I was half tempted to pay the £513 as I use the car a lot and it is of great inconvenience and obviously I wouldn't like it sold. I gather regaining the funds (if I'm entitled to them and if the appeal is successful) is quite lengthy. Any idea how long it might take to regain the vehicle with the PE2 and PE3 process? Do you think it likely the PE2 reasons are satisfactory or do I not really have a case and should just pay up?

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to read this and for your help!

 

"Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I have been unable to submit a statutory declaration in the normal time allowed because I did not receive a rejection notice and was unaware the PCN appeal had not been accepted until 31/07/2018 when bailiffs removed my vehicle.

 

I made representations about PCN xxxxxx within the 28 days of the penalty charge notice (on 11/10/2017) but did not receive a rejection notice. I made the representation after moving house from xxxxxxx to xxxxxxx on 30/09/2017. I have attached my tenancy agreement as evidence.

 

On my appeal document I stated my new address (xxxxxxxx). I also updated my driving licence with my change of address with the DVLA on 4/10/2017 shortly after moving. I have attached the updated driving licence as evidence.

 

Additionally, I contacted Barnet council twice requesting an update on the appeal and informing them of my change of address (I have attached screenshots of these emails).

 

Unfortunately, it seems that the relevant statutory documents were issued and delivered to my previous address.

 

Had I received a rejection notice – or any other correspondence regarding this matter – I would have accepted the rejection of the appeal and not hesitated to pay the balance requested in a timely fashion.

 

I look forward to the opportunity of addressing and settling this matter of the original PCN. I politely request this time and consideration on the grounds that my original representation included the new address of xxxxxxxxx, that I did not receive a rejection notice and was unaware of this situation until 31/07/2018.

 

I enclose copies of my tenancy agreement, driving licence, v5c logbook and emails.

 

Thank you kindly, "

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It is very important indeed to ascertain from the local authority whether they received your representation. Have you actually spoken to them?

 

PS: I know from personal experience that it can be almost impossible to get through to Barnet !!

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Good point. I did get through to them in the end (by just pressing yes to a department that had nothing to do with it and getting transferred as all the motor options just refer you to other automated voicemails) but didn't ask that. I will give it a try. I have no idea if they received the representation or subsequent emails and will have to ask them. I did find it odd (yet unsurprising) that they are hell-bent on you emailing them yet the times I emailed them requesting updates on the appeals and reminding them of my change of address, I received no reply. Had I done, this perhaps wouldn't have gone this far!

Edited by pebblecomber

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I was half tempted to pay the £513 as I use the car a lot and it is of great inconvenience and obviously I wouldn't like it sold. I gather regaining the funds (if I'm entitled to them and if the appeal is successful) is quite lengthy.

 

Any idea how long it might take to regain the vehicle with the PE2 and PE3 process?

 

The bad news first....if you submit the Out of Time state dec tomorrow, bailiff enforcement will be placed 'on hold' on Thursday morning. The 'hold' will be in place for a period of between a month to six weeks. If your application were to be accepted, you could expect to be allowed to collect your vehicle (it is never returned back) sometime around the beginning to the middle of September.

 

Until such time as the enforcement company receive notification from LB Barnet to place enforcement 'on hold' (which is likely to now be Thursday morning) storage fees can legally be applied which is an additional cost.

 

You mention that you are slightly hesitant in paying the sum of £513 as you believe that it can be difficult to recover the amount paid. From my experience, it is not difficult to obtain a refund and you will NOT be required to take legal proceedings.

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Thank you kindly for your response, Bailiff advice. Right, I thought I would have to pay out for legal costs to recover it. The best option, then, might be to pay the fee and simultaneously file the PE2 and PE3. If it's successful, I can reclaim the costs? Is that an option?

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I have no idea if they received the representation or subsequent emails and will have to ask them.

 

You need to ask them for confirmation of the date that they received your representation. I suspect that they did receive it, rejected it and sent a Notice of Rejection was sent to your previous address as opposed to the address on your representation. This is very common indeed.

 

If the operator confirms the above, you would then need to ask them WHY they did not write to the new address as provided in your representation. Make sure that you have a pen to hand to take notes of the conversation. This can then be of use with your Out of Time stat dec.

 

Somewhere on my computer I have a copy of a very important decision on this very subject from the Local Government Ombudsman. The LA were heavily criticised.

 

If after being made aware of a new address LB of Barnet proceeded to issue a warrant with the previous address, they would also be in breach of Item 12 of the Taking Control of Goods National Standards which states as follows:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/353396/taking-control-of-goods-national-standards.pdf

 

12. Creditors must not issue a warrant knowing that the debtor is not at the address, as a means of tracing the debtor at no cost.

 

PS: As you can probably ascertain from the above, it would not be wise to get your signature witnessed on the OOT until such time as you have spoken with Barnet's parking department.

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Thank you kindly for your response, Bailiff advice. Right, I thought I would have to pay out for legal costs to recover it. The best option, then, might be to pay the fee and simultaneously file the PE2 and PE3. If it's successful, I can reclaim the costs? Is that an option?

 

Absolutely right and you will also save by not incurring storage fees. You will have time to get a good OOT in place instead of rushing it. For the avoidance of doubt, if your OOT is accepted, you would not be required to issue legal proceedings to recover back the £513.

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Thank you kindly for being helpful. Is there anything to watch out for in terms of paying it? I believe I've seen stories on the forum about people being asked to sign something that later waives their rights to recover money and/or to refuse signature or sign with "declined". Don't know if that's super rare or something?

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Absolutely right and you will also save by not incurring storage fees. You will have time to get a good OOT in place instead of rushing it. For the avoidance of doubt, if your OOT is accepted, you would not be required to issue legal proceedings to recover back the £513.

 

Beyond getting confirmation of the appeal with the new address on it being received by Barnet Council and adding that to the OOt, is the OOT looking good or does more need adding to it? Or altering?

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Beyond getting confirmation of the appeal with the new address on it being received by Barnet Council and adding that to the OOt, is the OOT looking good or does more need adding to it? Or altering?

 

One step at a time. Speak to the council first and post back once you have done so.

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Thank you kindly for being helpful. Is there anything to watch out for in terms of paying it? I believe I've seen stories on the forum about people being asked to sign something that later waives their rights to recover money and/or to refuse signature or sign with "declined". Don't know if that's super rare or something?

 

I don't believe that this forum suggests such advice. An enforcement company have more to fear from their local authority client if a vehicle is damaged at the pound.

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Thanks so much for this. I've just got off the phone with Barnet Council (and recorded the call) and they updated my address (to my current address) at the time of the appeal (12/10/2017) but no letters were sent to it. They also did receive my enquiry email on 26/11/2017 (which also reminded them of my updated address). I'm guessing this leaves me in quite a strong position regarding my OOT now? :)

 

It is very important indeed to ascertain from the local authority whether they received your representation. Have you actually spoken to them?

 

PS: I know from personal experience that it can be almost impossible to get through to Barnet !!

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You are in a very strong position indeed. I will not be around until later on and will post back. So in a nutshell....they issued a warrant knowing full well that you were not at that address !!! Seems to be a breach of National Standards. Did you advise them of this?

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Thank you, Bailiff Advice.

 

It looks like it!

I did inform them that they received the address twice, logged it on the system and yet no documentation was sent there.

 

Didn't quite have the parlance/knowledge to say anything about National Standards over the phone though!

 

Thanks, I look forward to hearing back from you.

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If the operator confirms the above, you would then need to ask them WHY they did not write to the new address as provided in your representation. Make sure that you have a pen to hand to take notes of the conversation. This can then be of use with your Out of Time stat dec.

 

Somewhere on my computer I have a copy of a very important decision on this very subject from the Local Government Ombudsman.

 

The case itself is an old one (from 2012) and unfortunately doesn't appear on the LGO website so I cannot provide a link for you. The following is a 'word' version:

 

 

 

Local Authority: LB Lambeth.

 

The complaint:

 

Mr x complains that the council failed to send correspondence relating to a Penalty Charge Notice to the address he provided. He had recently moved house so he did not receive the notice rejecting his representation, and did not pursue his appeal rights.

 

In May 2010, Mr X was issued with a PCN because of an alledged parking infringement. He did not initially receive the document, having recently moved.

 

In June, MR X submitted his representations. He wished to appeal the fine and stated that he was unloading as allowed for, and did not exceed the loading period of twenty minutes. He provided a different address (his current address) for future correspondence.

 

Mr X heard no more about the PCN and assumed that he representation had been accepted. However, in February 2011, bailiffs arrived at the address Mr X had provided (in his representation) and demanded £705.44. In order to prevent Mr X’s car being taken away he paid. He then learnt that the council had continued to correspond on matters relating to the PCN at his previous address.

 

Mr X sought to file an Out of Time statutory declaration, but his application was refused. He then applied for the decision to be set aside, but this was also refused.

 

On commenting on this complaint; the council has said that it is required to send correspondence to the address provided by DVLA. It commented initially that in this case it would have been advantageous to send a copy of the formal rejection notice to Mr X but that it was not obliged to do so.

 

The Council has however reconsidered its position and has agreed to reimburse Mr X’s costs ad to pay an additional sum in recognition of the time and trouble to which he has been put, amounting to £1,000 in total.

 

Analysis:

 

It is the responsibility of the motorist to advise DVLA of any change of address, but in this case Mr X had provided his new address direct to the Council on the representation form. So it was helpful on the Council’s part not to make use of this information. The Council has said that it will raise as a training issue that it is good practise to copy correspondence to an address provided by the individual, in addition to the address provided by the DVLA>

 

Mr X would have been spared much time, trouble and anxiety had the Council taken the simple step of copying the correspondence to the address provided. However, the Council has reviewed its procedures and taken appropriate action to settle Mr X’s complaint.

 

I therefore propose to discontinue my investigation as the complaint has been settled satisfactorily.

Edited by dx100uk
edited - dx

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The case itself is an old one (from 2012) and unfortunately doesn't appear on the LGO website so I cannot provide a link for you. The following is a 'word' version:

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to find and post that. I will call them back and get a why from them to add to the OOT. I hope I don't have to go through the OOT getting rejected to have it all sorted! Such bloomi' hassle!

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The case itself is an old one (from 2012) and unfortunately doesn't appear on the LGO website so I cannot provide a link for you. The following is a 'word' version:

 

Hello! So I have confirmation from Barnet council that (as aforementioned) they received the updated address, twice, and that the rejection notice was sent to the old address. I shall revise my proposed PE2 form and post it here. In other news, I've paid out for the car. A little dirtier than when it left me and a slight bend of metal on the wheel arch.

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I am pleased to hear that you have collected the vehicle Did you have to pay an storage fees?

 

In relation to the slight damage to the wheel arch, unless you have photographic evidence of the vehicle at the time that it was being lifted onto the removal vehicle, it is almost impossible to succeed in any legal claim for damages.

Edited by honeybee13
Removing info about BA's client.

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Yes, there were storage fees!

 

I, sadly, don't have video of that.

Edited by DragonFly1967
Edited quoted text

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Hi Bailiff Advice and everybody,

 

So can you please advise if this is an acceptable OOT PE2 to send? Please forgive any naivety or stupidity on my part as this terrain is new to me. Thank you so much for your help.

 

"Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I have been unable to submit a statutory declaration in the normal time allowed because I did not receive a rejection notice and was unaware the PCN appeal had not been accepted until 31/07/2018 when bailiffs removed my vehicle.

 

I made representations about PCN xxxxxx within the 28 days of the penalty charge notice (on 11/10/2017), notifying Barnet Council of a new address, but did not receive a rejection notice. I made the representation after moving house from xxxxxxx to xxxxxxx on 30/09/2017. I have attached my tenancy agreement as evidence. I also updated my driving licence with my change of address with the DVLA on 4/10/2017 shortly after moving. I have attached the updated driving licence as evidence. Barnet Council confirmed via telephone on 01/08/2018 that they received my updated address on the representation on 12/11/2017 and received an enquiry email – also with the updated address – on 28/11/2017 but unfortunately all relevant statutory documents regarding this PCN were issued and delivered to my previous address. I have attached my enquiry email and a recording of the telephone call as evidence.

 

Had the rejection notice – or any other correspondence regarding this matter – been sent to my current address I would have accepted the rejection of the appeal and not hesitated to pay the balance requested in a timely fashion.

 

On the 09/08/2018 I paid the sum of £803 to Marston Holdings to recover my vehicle as I use it daily for activities relating to work. I wish to be reimbursed for all bailiffs fees and travel costs for the days I did not have my car in my possession, as all fair and reasonable measures were made by myself to inform Barnet Council of my new address and settle the PCN and Barnet Council, possessing this information, did not communicate adequately regarding this matter.

 

I look forward to the opportunity of addressing and settling this matter of the original PCN. I politely request this time and consideration on the grounds that my original representation included the new address of xxxxxxxxx, that I did not receive a rejection notice and was unaware of this situation until 31/07/2018.

 

I enclose copies of my tenancy agreement, driving licence, v5c logbook, telephone recording and emails.

 

Thank you kindly, "

 

Furthermore, I received a letter today from Barnet council reading:

 

"Thank you for your letter, which was received by the Council on 31/07/2018. Please be advised that on 14/08/2018 we received payment for the PCN; this was accepted as full and final settlement of the case and it is now considered closed. Please be aware that when you pay for the PCN this is an acceptance of liability and as such the case will remain paid and closed.

 

"With regards to your query, I would advise that we have never received an appeal in respect of this PCN. I can confirm that on 12/10/2017 we received an email from you challenging the PCN. On 14/11/2017 we sent our response, in the form of a Notice of Rejection."

 

So very interesting that they are now capable of sending letters to my current address!

 

Please advise next steps. I've paid £800 for the car's return and, given Barnet council's behaviour, do NOT consider the matter closed my end.

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I am pleased to hear that you have collected the vehicle Did you have to pay an storage fees?

 

In relation to the slight damage to the wheel arch, unless you have photographic evidence of the vehicle at the time that it was being lifted onto the removal vehicle, it is almost impossible to succeed in any legal claim for damages.

 

Hi Bailiff Advice, Just wondering if the above is the correct thing to write RE: PE2 or whether I should be submitting something else? Thanks so much and hope you've had a good weekend. Best Wishes.

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Hi Bailiff Advice and everybody,

 

Furthermore, I received a letter today from Barnet council reading:

 

"Thank you for your letter, which was received by the Council on 31/07/2018. Please be advised that on 14/08/2018 we received payment for the PCN; this was accepted as full and final settlement of the case and it is now considered closed. Please be aware that when you pay for the PCN this is an acceptance of liability and as such the case will remain paid and closed.

 

"With regards to your query, I would advise that we have never received an appeal in respect of this PCN. I can confirm that on 12/10/2017 we received an email from you challenging the PCN. On 14/11/2017 we sent our response, in the form of a Notice of Rejection."

 

Please advise next steps. I've paid £800 for the car's return and, given Barnet council's behaviour, do NOT consider the matter closed my end.

 

I am struggling to understand the comment about the 'appeal' which the council state was received on 12th October and responded to on 14th November by way of a Notice of Rejection. Any idea what they are referring to?

 

From the comment made, it would seem clear to me that the LA will be looking to REJECT your Out of Time application using the poor excuse that payment has been made in full. As far as I am concerned, this would be very wrong indeed. 'Behind the scenes' so to speak, I am assisting a solicitor with a similar situation to yours and the Ministry of Justice are involved in the complaint. I am very much looking forward to their reply as the complaint also addresses the legally of 're-sealing' a warrant to a new address.

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Thank you kindly for your reply.

So, to clarify, I submit my OOT with evidence as per what I wrote above, wait for them to approve or reject it?

What happens next?

Wow, that sounds like a big situation indeed!

 

RE: the challenge/appeal/whatever they're actually calling it, there was an option to view evidence and "appeal the contravention" on Barnet Council's website when I viewed the PCN.

 

I opted for the latter (including my new address as you know).

So here they are either saying that they received a "challenge" and simultaneously saying they never received an "appeal"

– or they are saying they received an initial challenge, replied (to the wrong address) and received no further appeals (impossible as I'd moved addresses and informed them).

 

By using the word "never", one would assume the former.

I challenged the PCN within the timeframe stated using the appropriate channel and using that channel to inform of the change of address

– I really don't understand this! We received your challenge but "never received an appeal in respect of this PCN"*

- WHAT?

 

Furthermore, the use of challenge and appeal on their website at the time of challenging the PCN appears to be interchangeable, if they are attempting to insinuate that a "challenge" is unsatisfactory and an "appeal" isn't.

 

Beyond confused, and irritated!

Edited by dx100uk
spacing

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