PCN for delivering in my car and not van (good vehicle)

[heathertippex]

Hi

I wonder if any of you lovely people can help me?

 

I was making a substantial delivery to a restaurant in Beverly ( Catering/janitorial supplies).

I was in my 4x4 as the van was delivering elsewhere.

 

The bay did have a restriction of 'goods vehicles only' but i did not see that.

The traffic warden agreed that she could see i was making a substantial delivery but said that i was using the wrong type of vehicle and issued a ticket.

 

I appealed the ticket giving the copy of the delivery note and explaining that the goods are too heavy and many to park in the multi story and walk with them.

They have rejected my appeal.

 

I am not happy about this and feel this is restrictive to their tenants and their suppliers.

My concern is that I will need to make future deliveries in my car …

how will I do this without getting a ticket or knackering my back by parking in the multi story?

 

Does anyone have any advise or similar situations?

Edited July 30, 2018 by dx100uk
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[honeybee13]

Hi.

 

Just to confirm, this week a council penalty charge notice, is it?

 

What is the exact wording of the offence please?

 

HB

[sgtbush]

Was the restriction on the bay GOODS vehicles only or LOADING only.

4x4's are not goods vehicles.

[heathertippex]

Hi.

 

Just to confirm, this week a council penalty charge notice, is it?

 

What is the exact wording of the offence please?

 

HB

 

Hi It was a council notice parking in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle'

 

I understand their point.

They did have signs up and I didn't read properly.

 

However, how can I make significant deliveries in future and how can they dictate what vehicle I should use?

 

I suppose I am disputing the sense in their restrictions.

 

It was good vehicles only.

I understand that the sign was there and I didn't read it.

However, there are a great many companies delivering to restaurants in that area that use estate cars and 4x4's to carry the goods.

 

I would like them to reconsider the merits, restriction and sense of their signs/ restrictions.

Edited July 30, 2018 by dx100uk
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[ploddertom]

Does your insurance allow you to carry goods for the business?

[DragonFly1967]

4x4's are not goods vehicles.

They most certainly can be. However, by the sounds of it, this one isn't.

 

The definition that the TPT will refer to is as a "goods vehicle" is defined in the Road Traffic Act, which says "a vehicle constructed or adapted for use for the carriage of goods or burden of any description". The important words there are "a vehicle constructed or adapted". Or possibly (though less likely) the EU definition of a "goods vehicle" which is "Category N: Motor vehicles with at least four wheels designed and constructed for the carriage of goods."

 

So if we're talking about just a normal passenger carrying 4x4 that you just happened to be using to carry goods at the time, then I'm afraid that the ticket has probably been issued correctly.

 

You can still appeal to the TPT of course, but I'd be very surprised if they ruled in your favour.

 

That said, it might be worth looking for the actual TRO that covers that loading area though to see exactly what it says. If the TRO says "loading only" but the council have put up a "Goods Vehicles Only" sign, then you might well have a much better case to get it overturned. As it's a free search, it's got to be worth a look.

[Michael Browne]

London tribunal case ref: 2160271291

 

 

This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being parked in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle. The PCN was issued at 12.56pm on 27 April 2016 and the location was Lenelby Road.

 

 

The Schedule to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 sets out the contents required by the Regulations for a valid PCN served under Regulation 9.

 

 

 

Among other things, the PCN is required to state the grounds on which the enforcement authority believes that the penalty charge is payable. Those grounds must be expressed in terms that allow the recipient of the PCN to properly understand the nature of the alleged contravention.

The Council say that the place in which Mrs Harding's vehicle was parked was a goods vehicle only loading bay. In other words, the bay was designated for goods vehicles only. This is not, however, clear on the face of the PCN which states simply that the vehicle was parked in a place not designated for that class of vehicle.

 

 

 

A motorist reading the PCN would not understand from the wording the nature of the alleged contravention because there is nothing to explain the class of vehicle for which the parking place was designated. The PCN needs to identify, whether by wording or images, that the class of vehicle for which the bay is designated is goods vehicles only.

 

 

I therefore find that the PCN was invalid and the appeal is allowed for that reason

.

[heathertippex]

Hi Ploddertom, Yes it does.

[heathertippex]

Hi Michael,

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am sorry I am not familiar with your three word abbreviations ... would you mind expanding

 

I would like to search the database as I feel it is massively restrictive to their tenants to restrict the type of delivery vehicles and it is entirely possible that the sign will not match the remit so to speak. Do you know what would i need to put into google to come up with their database?. Also as we are still in the EU could I not use the EU definition?

[sgtbush]

Three word abbreviations?

 

Are u referring to PCN?

Penalty charge notice.

 

The only issue with that appeal was the council did not represent themselves and didn't take a pic of the road sign. That's why the appeal was allowed.

[Michael Browne]

 

The only issue with that appeal was the council did not represent themselves

Yes, they did with their evidence pack

 

 

 

 

 

 

didn't take a pic of the road sign..

 

 

Not quite sure how you know that and even if they didn't, it's irrelevant as that's not the issue

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's why the appeal was allowed.

 

 

No the appeal was allowed becaues the pcn was defective i that it didn't identify the esignated class of vehicle

[sgtbush]

The only ref I can find for tho case is on piepoo

Can you put the link up to the actual judgment please for the benefit of the OP.

[Michael Browne]

Can you put the link up to the actual judgment please for the benefit of the OP.

 

 

What I've posteed is the verbatim adjudication from the London Tribunals site You can find it by searching the Register of Appeals with the ref 2160271291

 

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

[sgtbush]

Your search has no results

 

If I wasn't on my phone I could post the screen shot

 

Even a search with

 

Mary Harding v Royal Borough of Kingston Upon Thames (case reference 2160271291):

 

Or just Mary Harding reveals no results

[Michael Browne]

Screen Shot:

harding.pdf

[sgtbush]

It would be easier for you to click the link and post the url for direct access.

Still comes up with no search results. It might be my mobile tho

[AndyOrch]

Link is ok.

[sgtbush]

Link is fine, search results yeild nothing.

 

Might be my Mobile phone tho

[stu007]

on Tribunals Register of Appeals: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/about/registers-appeals

 

Click on 'Access the appellant portal'

 

When new Webpage opens go down to 'Statutory Registers' and click

 

It opens up 'Registers of Appeals' go down to 'Enviromental and Traffic Adjudicators (ETA) and click 'Search' (not the browse button)

 

It opens up 'ETA Register of Appeals and in 'Case reference' put the case ref number in and go down the page and click 'Search'

[heathertippex]

Hi

 

Is a TRO a 'Traffic Rule Order' ?

I would like to search the register to see what they have as the restriction in that location so I can see it matches the sign - whilst I contemplate what I am to do about this.

 

In the meantime, it would seem that the council have decided that their parking restrictions are too restrictive and have put a sign up indicating a variance to the parking allowed.

 

Now allowing:

1) loading for commercial vehicles 6 am to noon -

 

2) No Stopping except Taxis between noon and 6 am

 

3) Shared use of the bay -

Good vehicles for loading 6 am to noon

Limited waiting between noon and 6 am

 

This puts me and a number of other suppliers at an immediate disadvantage if we use our 4x4 or estate cars for delivery. This I feel penalises and restricts small businesses - unless I am missing something?? HELP !.

 

I don't think I have any choice but to take this all the way otherwise I can not deliver safely to this client at the moment unless I take our van which is 1) not cost effective and 2) its often not available.

 

I have 28 days from 16th Augusts to respond to the Notice to owner.

 

ALL HELP GREATLY APPRECIATED

[heathertippex]

Desperately trying to get some help or information on this.

Starting with checking what ever a TRO to make sure the written directive and actual directive match and where I can find the TRO register ��

[dx100uk]

should be on the relevant council website

[heathertippex]

Ok I will have a look.

[heathertippex]

Hi CAG people,

 

I wonder if anyone can help me?

 

I was making a substantial delivery to a restaurant in Beverly ( Catering/janitorial supplies).

I was in my 4x4 as the van was delivering elsewhere. As a small company we only have one van and so I use my car when the van is not available.

 

The bay in question did have a restriction of 'goods vehicles only' but i did not see that.

The traffic warden agreed that she could see i was making a substantial delivery but said that i was using the wrong type of vehicle and issued a ticket.

 

I appealed the ticket giving the copy of the delivery note and explaining that the goods are too heavy and many to park in the multi story and walk with them.

They have rejected my appeal as I was using the wrong type of vehicle for the delivery.

 

I am not happy about this and feel this is restrictive to the tenants (Restaurant) and their other suppliers.

 

My concern is that I will need to make future deliveries in my car as I am not yet ready financially to buy anther van. Going forward I will not be able to do business with this client as the nearest parking bay that I can use is in the multi story car park round the corner and I can not park there and make multiple journeys with heavy goods.

 

Many other suppliers and small businesses deliver in estate cars and 4 x 4's for much the same reason as myself. If I can show that I am making substantial deliveries and only doing that, why can I not unload this area in the same way the vans are?

 

Does anyone have any thoughts or similar situations?

[heathertippex]

:roll: Edited August 21, 2018 by heathertippex
mistake