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New Jaguar E-Pace - Major incident, Jaguar response No fault found.


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Took delivery of a brand new E-Pace and initially all was good until 6th June was drive on a dual carriage way and the front collision detection system triggered incorrectly.

 

The car was bought to a stand still, the hand brake applied, and engine switched off, no vehicles or obstruction in front of car.

Luckily the lorry and car behind our realised there was a fault and avoided a collision, wife and daughter very shaken.

 

Reported to dealership who were very concerned and asked to bring it into dealership,

they inspected the car found errors or logs relating to the time of the incident.

 

Dealership said we could not have our car back it was too dangerous hire car was provided.

were hoping there was an identifiable fault that would be quickly fix but after a week still investigations were ongoing

we therefore rejected the car as ‘no fit for purchase’

 

Initially dealership were onboard and told us to report the issue to Jaguar Finance stating we were going to reject the car.

Dealership the found a replacement car but delays started to happen

Main issues were the replacement car was £600 which I wasn’t prepared to pay but also I’d used Jaguar Privilege staff discount which caused problems

 

I continued to chase and was told ‘we have to follow process’.

By this stage I’d already escalated the issue to the Jaguar Executive team.

 

2nd June still no updates

chased and was told still waiting for report from engineers at which point I expressed concern and threated legal action.

Magically a few hours later I received a call from dealership, no Jaguar stating that no fault had been found and as a result they could not replace my car and I’d have to have my original car back.

 

I have stressed that no fault found does not mean the incident did not happen, in theory it is now more serious as Jaguar are aware of an issue and have been unable to identify the cause.

 

Weekly summary of the events below, I have a very detailed breakdown of events

 

Is there anything I can do, my wife now does not want to drive the car, she did feel happier knowing the car was going to be replaced. Now she will be concerned if it happens again.

 

25/05/2018 1 Delivery and handover of E-Pace

 

01/06/2018 2 Identified faults, rear fog light wiring, alarm triggered, 3G Issues

 

06/06/2018. Collision detection system triggered incorrectly

 

08/06/2018 3 Car returned to Marshalls due to serious fault, refused to return car as logs found, too dangerous

 

15/06/2018 4 "Asked to call Finance company and inform them car is not fit for purpose and is being rejected.

All ad-min good and complete and everyone had approved the replacement.

Christian had identifed a suitable vehicle but due to additional cost it needed approval but shouldn't be an issue."

 

22/06/2018 5 Replacement vehicle hadn't been approved, must follow process.

 

29/06/2018 6 "Issue relating to Privilege voucher resolved

Christian working to locate suitable replacement car.

Additional £600 reguired for new car, unwilling to pay extra, Marshalls unable to cover costs.

Potential issues with Q3 pricing in comparison to Q2, need to wait until next week."

 

06/07/2018 7 Q3 SE Specification changed, Drive Pack now an additional £700 cost option.

Edited by honeybee13
Reg no removed.
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Hello and welcome to CAG. People should be along to advise later.

 

 

I've removed the registration of the car to keep this anonymous for you.

 

 

Best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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So dealership found faults and said they couldn't return car as it was dangerous but jaguar say its ok?

 

Id be sitting in the dealerships managers office rejecting car for full refund and taking my business elsewhere

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UPDATE : I still have access to our car using the Jaguar app and I've discovered that the journey history is available. This confirms that something clearly happened, there's two entries, so my challenge is why did our stop & start for 1 minute on a dual carriage way?

 

  • Start time 13:27 left our home address, and then ended at 13:34 on the A1
  • Start time 13:35 from A1 to Biggleswade Retail Park at 13:40

 

I've sent these details along with detailed map images from the Jaguar application asking Jaguar to explain the break if there's 'No fault found'

 

So dealership found faults and said they couldn't return car as it was dangerous but jaguar say its ok?

 

Id be sitting in the dealerships managers office rejecting car for full refund and taking my business elsewhere

 

Refund is more challenging and complicates this situation, the purchase of the car is a combination of finance, trade-in & privileged employee discount.

 

  • Trade in money can be refunded, easy.
  • Finance, in theory this could be cancelled but I've now made one payment and will I get this back. Finance company own car and dealership will have buy the car back from finance company.
  • Privilege, this is the difficult one, it equates to 20% but is assigned to a car and not a customer, I'm only allowed one Privilege voucher per year.

 

Privilege will issue a replacement voucher as long as there's a confirmed fault, so my current situation is that another car & dealership will result in an extra £8k cost as 'No fault found'.

 

To be fair to the dealership they cannot do anything until a fault is found, the issue has been Jaguar Cars, I've already escalated to their Executive Team. Initially they were returning calls and emails, then it started to become a problem and Jaguar ignored calls and emails from both me and the dealership for over a week. As a result I contacted customers services and they informed me that they had changed the person dealing with the case but hand't had the curtsy to inform either of us.

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Out of interest, do you have any record/evidence (email perhaps) of the dealership refusing to return the car to you as there were "errors" found and the car was too dangerous to drive?

 

 

Those last few words "too dangerous to drive" scream FAULT to me, not "error" :|

 

An 'error' to me would be things like a minor CANbus error/fault. Things like bulb failure etc, not a complete shut down of the vehicle on a dual carriageway.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Unfortunately not, I returned the car to the dealership and after about 1.5hrs I was told the issue was very strange, initially they couldn't find any logs but after restarting the car the logs / errors appeared that were linked the to incident. It was at this point I was told that I couldn't have my car back as it was too dangerous and didn't want to put me at risk, unfortunately this was all verbal.

 

The fact that a hire car has been provided would imply there was an issue, another verbal conversation I had with the Jaguar Executive Team was that they had instructed the dealership not move the car to preserve any logs and faults.

 

I did contact the dealership on Wednesday 4th regarding the return of our car and yesterday evening regarding the new evidence that there was a 1 minute break in the journey, the incident!, and asking for this to be explained.

 

I'm struggling to believe that two people from the dealership and one Jaguar person are all out of the office as I've now not had any replies or updates for three days now. Maybe they are in a darkened room trying to work out how they plan to resolve this issue?

Edited by jaguarNoGood
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I've been having a bit of a Google, and I did manage to find a Jaguar Technical Bulletin regarding the AEB sensor(s)/controllers.

 

In case it's any use to you, it's SSM73019, Dated: 19/10/2016 and/or NHTSA ID: 10127112 - TSB ID: JTB00576NAS1, Dated 16/01/2018.

 

It looks like the XF and F-Pace also have issues with the sensor/camera/control module. It may or may not be related, but should be worth the dealer investigating.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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I've been having a bit of a Google, and I did manage to find a Jaguar Technical Bulletin regarding the AEB sensor(s)/controllers.

 

In case it's any use to you, it's SSM73019, Dated: 19/10/2016 and/or NHTSA ID: 10127112 - TSB ID: JTB00576NAS1, Dated 16/01/2018.

 

It looks like the XF and F-Pace also have issues with the sensor/camera/control module. It may or may not be related, but should be worth the dealer investigating.

 

I think were I am and hasn’t changed since the first week, I was hoping that a recognised fault would be identified quck and then we’d continue

. After a week it was clear this was a unique issue and there would be no guarantee that it had been fixed and the reason for then rejecting the car as not fit for purpose.

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But then, even Google is more useful than someone saying...

 

Don’t we just love people who wander into Service Reception clutching a Google printout.

 

:lol:

 

However, I wasn't suggesting that the OP go in to the dealer having printed ½ the internet :wink:. But the OP could've gone in armed with the information that they have been reading technical bulletins, and go down the lines of 'have you thought of x, y or z'. Just trying to cover all bases for the OP really.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Probably hasn't read the owners manual or understands the how the system works. These systems need to be kept clean all the times so if the OP hasn't washed the car it will flag up errors. Then the car goes into a dealer who does a courtesy wash and all is then well so the dealer can't find out what's wrong. Seen this so many times on BMW and Mercs!!!

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Probably hasn't read the owners manual or understands the how the system works. These systems need to be kept clean all the times so if the OP hasn't washed the car it will flag up errors. Then the car goes into a dealer who does a courtesy wash and all is then well so the dealer can't find out what's wrong. Seen this so many times on BMW and Mercs!!!

 

Just checking, is this a suggestion that the fault with our car maybe dirt related, it was only 12 days old still nice and clean and I'm sure the dealership would have said 'dirty car not good'!

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I think they mean collision detection sensors dirty, causing this problem.

 

If the sensors had just had some temporary debris thrown up, could this have caused the problem ?

 

Due to you remember if the road was dusty or there was litter or other debris on the road ?

 

Could it be that sensors were set at a level that was too sensitive and therefore caused this error ?

 

The garage could have changed the programming for the sensors, so now no problem is showing up ? and if so if you asked for a complete data dump, you see if the program settings have been changed.

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Wasn't aware that the sensors levels could be adjusted, and to be honest getting any data from Jaguar relating to our car is impossible which makes me think there's something they are trying to hide.

 

The issue could be sensor related, where this happened is just after joining a dual carriage way from a slip road and immediately go under a bridge, I've always wondered and questioned if the bridge may have contributed to the issue?

 

Screen Shot 2018-07-07 at 10.08.09.png

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no the sensors aren't adjustable, they're calibrated during original manufacture.

It's a radar based system.

dirt on the sensors can cause a problem.

 

I think JLR cars follow the same procedure as its German rivals for a service calibration but it's not an easy process.

 

Personally when I'm using cars equipped with this I turn it off as

1. I think the technology is not mature enough and

2. I'd rather rely on my driving ability plus

3 if you're in a situation to use it you've probably done something to get you in that situation!

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The three points you make Heliosuk rather hit the nail on the head, especially point 1.

 

This situation rather reminds me of what you told me several years ago on a different issue---"Beyond normal service capability".

 

The real question here is really Why are manufacturers allowed to sell cars with equipment so fikie that a bit of dirt can bring them to an unauthorised halt.?

 

The E-Pace is not a budget car, so they and their likes should be thoroughly tested prior to sale to Joe public.

 

It doesn't bear thinking about the consequenses if I had been thundering down that road in my Scania and the OP came to an abrupt halt in front of me.

 

I doubt clean underwear would have resolved the situation.

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It doesn't bear thinking about the consequenses if I had been thundering down that road in my Scania and the OP came to an abrupt halt in front of me..

 

Like if a child ran into the road and they did an emergency stop?

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no the sensors aren't adjustable, they're calibrated during original manufacture.

It's a radar based system.

dirt on the sensors can cause a problem.

 

I think JLR cars follow the same procedure as its German rivals for a service calibration but it's not an easy process.

 

Personally when I'm using cars equipped with this I turn it off as

1. I think the technology is not mature enough and

2. I'd rather rely on my driving ability plus

3 if you're in a situation to use it you've probably done something to get you in that situation!

 

I agree with all three points and regardless of what happens next I'm unlike to enable the collision detection again, possibly explains why its disabled by default.

 

But in principle why are customers buying products that are potentially unsafe and are then not using or disabling them?

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No Bazza, not like if a child ran into the road.

 

In that scenario the following driver would/should be aware of the incursion and respond far more quickly than if for no related reason the vehicle in front comes to a sudden halt!

My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

If you have found my post helpful, please enhance my reputation by clicking on the Heart. Thank you

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Ford have similar technology in their Active City Stop.

 

It's saved my furry ass several times.

 

H

42 years at the pointy end of the motor trade. :eek:

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No Bazza, not like if a child ran into the road.

 

In that scenario the following driver would/should be aware of the incursion and respond far more quickly than if for no related reason the vehicle in front comes to a sudden halt!

 

 

Would, or should .... if they had the same vision of the child as the driver in the front car ...... which isn't a given (even with the presumed advantage of being in a cab, higher up.....).

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If the driver behind (no matter if they're in a G-Wiz or a 40ton truck) is driving correctly, the gap to the vehicle in front should be sufficient that they can bring their vehicle to a complete halt no matter what the vehicle in front does.

 

As BazzaS has said, you cannot assume that the driver of the vehicle behind would have the same, or even a clear (or indeed any) view of the road ahead, so they should be ready and able to react no matter what happens in front of them. Standard defensive driving.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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And the response by the driver in front would be slower than the vehicle's supposed better technology, (otherwise why have it?) including steering away from the incursion, which was a selling point of ABS brakes. It was after all on a dual carriageway.

My time as a Police Officer and subsequently time working within the Motor Trade gives me certain insights into the problems that consumers may encounter.

I have no legal qualifications.

If you have found my post helpful, please enhance my reputation by clicking on the Heart. Thank you

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I agree with all three points and regardless of what happens next I'm unlike to enable the collision detection again, possibly explains why its disabled by default.

 

But in principle why are customers buying products that are potentially unsafe and are then not using or disabling them?

 

I really don't know, some of these systems are brilliant such as lane departure, parking aid sensors but AEB I just don't get like I don't get auto dip. Frequently calibrated incorrectly and for the wrong markets. It's not enhancing the driving experience but taking control of human intervention. Good technology introductions such as Sat Nav, ABS, EBS Adaptive dampers, SOS are all good features along with many others but those which take away driver interaction cannot be good for anyone.

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