ParkingEye ANPR PCN - overstay with BB Lido (1) Margate, Kent

[CoffeeAndCake]

Hey guys.

 

So I got my first ever PCN today, through the post.

 

1 Date of the infringement 24/06/2018

 

2 Date on the NTK [this must have been received within 14 days from the 'offence' date] 28/06/2018

 

3 Date received 30/06/2018

 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [y/n?] Yes

 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? Yes

 

6 Have you appealed? {y/n?] post up your appeal] No

 

Have you had a response? [Y/N?] post it up

 

7 Who is the parking company?ParkingEye

 

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Lido (1) in Margate, Kent

 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. It says BPA on the letter.

 

It was just getting dark when I entered the car park, and it was packed (we were there to see a show).

I honestly didn't see any place to pay for parking, nor did I see any signs that I needed to pay.

 

 

I had a blue badge which was displayed clearly and the correct time was set.

 

Not entirely sure what to do with this!

Any advice about how to proceed would be appreciated.

 

The car park is not local to me, but I'm not the only one that's had trouble here

I've found a link to this post which shows pictures of the car park if that helps:

 

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?476286-Parking-Eye-claimform-ANPR-PCN-Lido-car-park-Cliftonville-Kent-BB-on-Display&p=5074782&viewfull=1#post5074782

 

I've also attached a copy of the letter I received (front and back).

 

Many thanks in advance

Edited July 3, 2018 by dx100uk
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[dx100uk]

I would suggest its 3hrs free parking anyway

check the council planning website

most are 3hrs and no PPC can change that.

 

dx

[CoffeeAndCake]

Hi again!

 

I've checked Thanet Council's website and I can't find any planning applications regarding the car park. I found a copy of the Thanet District Council Off-Street Parking Places Order 2003 but it was amended in 2011 and I can't find a copy of the amendment.

[silverfox1961]

Hi

Lido (1)??? Is that all they state?

 

 

Where on earth is Lido (1)? They have not given you any information for you to judge what is what.

 

 

I do remember one case

 

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486592-PE-ANPR-PCN-lido-carpark-cliftonville-margate&p=5114136&viewfull=1#post5114136

 

 

Is this the same site?

[lookinforinfo]

Some parking companies charge blue badge holders......................The ticket doesn't actually state what you were charged for-just putting in entering and leaving details seems insufficient without including what their times are for remaining in the car park.

[CoffeeAndCake]

Hi

Lido (1)??? Is that all they state?

 

 

Where on earth is Lido (1)? They have not given you any information for you to judge what is what.

 

 

I do remember one case

 

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?486592-PE-ANPR-PCN-lido-carpark-cliftonville-margate&p=5114136&viewfull=1#post5114136

 

 

Is this the same site?

 

Hi, yes that's the same site.

 

I scanned in everything I was sent, I had to google to find out the proper address in order to search for planning information.

[CoffeeAndCake]

Is this okay to use to send to Parkingeye?

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re: Parking Charge Reference number xxxxxxx Vehicle registration: xxxxxxxx

 

I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and have received the above demand from you.

 

I dispute owing you any amount and deny all liability in this matter. Please accept this letter as a formal appeal under your appeals process.

 

The basis of my appeal is:

 

1. The amount you have claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of any loss to either Parking Eye or the car park landowner.

 

2. The signs in your car park fail to comply with your Accredited Trade Association’s Code of Practice

 

3. No contract was formed with the driver due to the fact that your signs were was not sufficiently brought to the attention of the driver.

 

4. ParkingEye is not the landowner and therefore Parking Eye does not have the right to enter into a contract with a driver nor does Parking Eye have the right to bring a claim for trespass.

 

Please confirm in writing whether you accept my appeal and withdraw your demand. If you reject my appeal, please provide the following particulars:

 

1) The basis of your charge (i.e. contract breach, trespass or contractual fee).

 

If you are alleging breach of contract, I require a breakdown of the liquidated damages you claim were suffered, and by whom, and how each particular loss arose.

If you are alleging trespass please enclose evidence of the alleged perpetrator and proof of the liquidated damages alleged and the calculation of this sum.

If you alleging a “contractual fee” I request a VAT invoice from you and ask you to explain the daily rate for parking and service provided for that fee.

2) Please also advise the amount of money you would have recieved from the driver of my vehicle should the alleged contract have been met to your satisfaction.

 

3) Please advise the name and address of the landowner.

 

4) Please provide a POPLA code that allows me to appeal to POPLA.

 

If ParkingEye rejects my appeal: please do not contact me again with more demands as I deny owing Parking Eye any money and deny that any driver of my vehicle has entered into a contract with you. Any legal action you initiate against me will be defended.

 

Yours sincerely,

[DragonFly1967]

Waste of ink.

 

"I'm not liable. This is an appeal. Now give me a POPLA code." will do just fine.

 

 

ParkingLie will reject it even if you re-wrote War & Peace, so it's pointless. All you need is the POPLA code.

[silverfox1961]

I agree with DF here. PE rarely allow appeals as they have to make money for their shareholders.

 

 

I have also checked the council website and I cannot find any planning applications nor permissions there for PE or the landowner. Save this for the appeal to POPLA and don't give PE the heads up. No planning permission, no contract. simple as. I am surprised as they have installed the machine near the entrance which would have needed permission before work started.

[ericsbrother]

As the NTK fails to create a debt anyways because it fails to indetify the land properly they cant claim from the driver, let alone the keeper.

 

A short letter pointing this out should be sufficient.

If they mean Lidl and Margate has more than one store or car park then beofre you send that letter send a letter of complaint to Lidl's chief exec and let him know that their AGENTS are incapable of using english as a written language let alone complying with the POFA

 

and what are they going to do about this appaling state of affairs as it would be disastrous for Lidl's reputation if the whole thing became a cause celebre.

I woud bet that Lidl then tell PE to cancel to save them their reputation

Edited July 6, 2018 by dx100uk
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[silverfox1961]

As the NTK fails to create a debt anyways because it fails to indetify the land properly they cant claim from the driver, let alone the keeper.

 

A short letter pointing this out should be sufficient.

If they mean Lidl and Margate has more than one store or car park then beofre you send that letter send a letter of complaint to Lidl's chief exec and let him know that their AGENTS are incapable of using english as a written language let alone complying with the POFA

 

and what are they going to do about this appaling state of affairs as it would be disastrous for Lidl's reputation if the whole thing became a cause celebre.

I woud bet that Lidl then tell PE to cancel to save them their reputation

 

 

LIDO not LIDL

[ericsbrother]

still fails to identify the land in question- just haven to send a snotty letter of complaint to someone else. i have heard of Cliftonville Lido and baths but that isnt the same as this place otherwise it would say so on the NTK along with a postcode. If they mean the LIDO, an entertainments venue they would have said that.

 

 

Laziness is not an excuse so clobber them hard. Star with the venue owners and then tell the parking co that they are talking garbage and you want a POPLA number. POPLA will probably sit on the fence until their backside resembles a hot cross bun and then fall on the parking co's side but the law is clear on this point so no excuse and more importantly no debt

Edited July 6, 2018 by honeybee13
Paras

[CoffeeAndCake]

Hey guys!

 

Thank you for all the advice so far. I sent a basic appeal to ParkingEye (I am the registered keeper, I deny owing you anything) and shockingly, it was rejected. I now have my very own POPLA code.

 

So what's the best way to go about the POPLA appeal?

 

I did a search on the Thanet Council website and couldn't find anything about planning permission (I mentioned this earlier in the thread) and after further searches I'm not entirely sure who owns the car park in question.

 

As I mentioned, the car park isn't local to me but there's a link posted earlier to another thread where someone else had issues in this car park, which includes photos.

 

Thank you again for all of your help so far.

[silverfox1961]

I'm sure ericsBrother will give better advice than me but my initial thoughts are that due to no planning permission found, you cannot be bound by unlawful terms. Failure to fully identify the site in question is another. Inadequate signage??, even though it is unlawful anyway.

[lookinforinfo]

We would have been shocked had they cancelled your ticket. They are not in that car park to observe the law but to make money.

 

It's kind of difficult to defend yourself against their charge when you don't know what the actual charge is.

Is it because you didn't pay: didn't pay enough or you overstayed?

 

If you go back to the car park and take photos of the various notices there including the main one at the entrance [there should be one] and a close up of the terms and conditions on the ticket machine if there is one. Quite often the different signs contradict each other which gives you another argument to win at POPLA.

[yourturntopay]

I think it’s my thread/post your are referring to.

My daughter parked at the Lido in Cliftonville and Parking Eye submitted a claim to the MCOL after she refused to pay their charges.

 

After following the very helpful and excellent advice from CAG I submitted a defence to PE claim.

 

PE then went very quiet and never responded to MCOL when asked how they wished to proceed.

The case is now stayed.

 

I have photos etc if you need them but if you parked at the LIDO in the evening then Centre your defence around the fact that the car park is unlit and the signs cannot be seen when it is dark.

 

PE tried to say the car park had adequate lighting But my photos proved they were lying.

[ericsbrother]

I advised that you start by complaining to the owners of the land.

you didnt do this so now they wont want to help you and the chances are the contract PE has precludes them from now interfering in their money grabbing.

 

We dont say to do things that arent in your best interests and now you have made things a little harder for yourself.

 

POPLA wont make a decision on planning matters nor application of the POFA nor adequacy of signage because their remit is too limited.

 

What did you say to PE and then we can advise whether appealing to POPLA is worthwhile or not.

[CoffeeAndCake]

You didn't advise me to complain to the owners until after I'd already submitted the appeal to PE, which was the advice in the thread up to that point.

 

As mentioned above,

I've done some searches,

both on the council planning site and elsewhere.

 

I've found the owners of the only venue that the car park is next to,

I think they may own the car park but I can't confirm it.

 

My appeal to ParkingEye literally just said

"I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and have received the above demand from you.

 

I dispute owing you any amount and deny all liability in this matter. Please accept this letter as a formal appeal under your appeals process."

 

@yourturntopay yes your thread was the one I was referring to

as the details are almost exactly the same

- I parked there in the evening using a BB,

the place was packed (we were seeing a show at Winter Gardens) and never saw any signs suggesting I should pay.

 

Thanks for your help.

[ericsbrother]

Your appeal to POPLA should be that PE have failed to identify the land in question and you also demand to see their contract with the landowner as you do not believe they have one that covers either the supposed named location.

 

have failed to follow the protocols of the POFA to create a liability by the driver. let alone the keeper namely para 7.2. as they have failed to do this they cannot meet the requirements of para 4

 

As for land ownership and planning permission,

the paucity of signage etc save that for later as PE will tell lies to POPLA about the sigange as they often do if the reality doesns match their storyline.

 

POPLA may well reject your appeal but that is of no importance as far as the law goes

Knowing more about the site will be useful so if you want to try and show that there was no offer by way of legible signage then you need to produce evidence of this by way of pictures and diagrams.

 

PE will tell POPLA that there are 1000 illumiated signs there and not be asked to produce evidence of this so it is not a level playing field.

Likewise POPLA used to show the parking co's evidence to you so it can be rebutted but they dont now as that is inconvenient to their story as well.

 

Knowing who owns the land ect will be importnat in the long run, as it is a commercial plot the Valuations Agency and the local council will be able to tell you

Edited July 12, 2018 by dx100uk
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[CoffeeAndCake]

Can anyone give this a quick once over to check it's alright to use as my POPLA appeal?

 

As the registered keeper of the above vehicle, I wish to appeal the parking charge notice issued against it. I would like to have the parking charge notice cancelled based on the following grounds:

 

ParkingEye has failed to identify the land in question and it has not provided any evidence that it is lawfully entitled to demand money from the driver or keeper.

 

Parking Eye must provide the POPLA Adjudicator with documentary evidence in the form of a copy of the actual site agreement/contract with the landowner/occupier. Specifically, to comply with the Code of Practice

 

, the contract needs to specifically grant Parking Eye the right to pursue parking charges in the courts in their own name, as creditor.

 

Please note that a 'Witness Statement' to the effect that a contract is in place between Parking Eye and the landowner will be insufficient to provide all the required information, and will therefore be unsatisfactory.

 

ParkingEye have also failed to establish a right to claim unpaid parking charges as set out in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012. They have have not met the requirements set out in paragraph 7 (2) of the Act and as such cannot meet the requirements set out in paragraph 4 of the Act.

 

With all this in mind, I request that my appeal is upheld and for POPLA to inform ParkingEye to cancel the PCN.

 

Yours faithfully,

Edited July 19, 2018 by dx100uk
Spacing

[ericsbrother]

Personally I wouldnt say you are appealing, I would state the reasons as to why their NTK fails to create ANY liability and that if they continue to pursue you then you are more than happy to take action against them.

 

If you say it is an appeal thery will just say that they have considered it and you still owe the money because they say so.

 

IF they wish to consider your letter of denial an appeal then let them do so, you can still appeal to POPLA to waste their money with the knowledge that they are talking out of their hat and it will in the long run be a waste of their time and money to kep trying their luck.

Edited July 19, 2018 by DragonFly1967
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