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PCN 52M - Failing to comply with a prohibition...wrong way down one way street


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Hello

 

My husband apparently went the wrong way down a one way street. He didn't see any signs.

 

I was going to ask if anyone can identify any technicalities we could use to avoid paying the PCN but I can't upload the photos as I don't have enough posts!

 

So I will ask the only question that I can without photos...The PCN arrived yesterday, 21 June 2018, (with first class postage) but I note that the notice is dated 13 June 2018. This means there is a very short time before the 14 days expire. Does this give us anything to argue?

 

Thank you so much :)

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On the basis of what you tell us here, he had probably better put his hands up.

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Dont need 10 posts

Read upload

One multipage pdf only mind!!

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thank you for your reply.

it sounds as if the argument about the PCN arriving late might not go anywhere.

 

I was really hoping to upload the photos.

The last time my husband received a PCN I didn't have this problem!

 

Maybe this post will add to my count and then I can add the photos shortly...?!

 

This is going to be annoying but my extra posts are working.

..so I will add some more posts and then upload my tinypics which I got all ready beforehand! Would be a shame not to use them :)

 

Extra post...photos will be coming soon!

 

Another post...photos are even closer now!

 

I think this is the final post...then the photos will be here! How annoying for everyone! Sorry!

 

 

Oh dear...the links don't seem to be there :-( does anyone know why that might be?

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Nice try. Posts merged.

 

Oh dear...the links don't seem to be there :-( does anyone know why that might be?

 

Because you haven't read >> Click it >> upload

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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OK, thanks! The world of posting has changed a lot in a few years.

Unfortunately, I've got a screaming 6.5 month old baby on my lap so I can't now faff around with pdfs

(plus the instructions don't seem to make any sense to me from a quick read).

 

Thankfully, I've just managed to use my tinypic links (that took me ages) on the pepipoo website, so if anyone wants to help then you'll find the photos on there with a subject line mentioning "PCN 52M" :)

Thanks for reading :)

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Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Thank you for looking and for the google maps link. Should there not be a red no entry sign just before the road on the left like there is for the road in front which is also no entry?

 

Also, looking at google maps just now, I can see how someone could mistake the white line which is part of the cycle lane for the usual white line on a two way road, if that makes sense? It's a bit misleading...had there been a red no entry sign perhaps it would have been clearer?

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There isn't a "No Entry" sign as it isn't a no entry road. I suppose they could have used a no entry sign with a second "Except Cycles" below it. But I think the "No Motor Vehicles" sign will have the same meaning in law. http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/road-signs-giving-orders.html

 

As for the while lines. The usual white line on a two way road would be a single dashed line, rather than a double which usually signifies 'Give Way'. http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/road-markings.html

 

A circular sign with a red border is a prohibition, and it's up to the motorist to see these signs and obey them. And in fairness to the council, they're even properly illuminated.

 

 

Whilst you're within your rights to challenge anything on any grounds, I'm afraid that I think you're going to be fighting a losing battle on this one. I'd swallow it, pay the penalty charge (with 0 points) and count myself lucky that one of the vehicles coming towards me that night wasn't a police vehicle. Lesson learned :wink:

 

 

There's also a study that you might find interesting that was carried out for TfL in 2012. The conclusions are on pages 58 & 59. http://content.tfl.gov.uk/no-entry-except-cycles-signing-review.pdf

 

I don't think it's going to help in this case, but at least they are looking at this kind of thing.

 

 

 

Oh, and by the way, you've left your registration number and PCN number visible on "photo 2" :thumb:

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Thank you so much for your detailed reply which I will look at properly shortly. In relation to the details on the photo, what is the reason for normally redacting them? I can't find how to edit or even delete the post on pepipoo :(

Edited by oodly
Mistake
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Redacting the photos is more for your own peace of mind more than anything, although sometimes, it's alarming what can be found on the internet just from tiny scraps of information, which is why we always advise that anything that can identify a poster (car registrations, reference numbers and especially names and addresses) is removed.

 

Besides that, if I was the type and had (or had access to) the same car as you, maybe even steal one, there'd be absolutely nothing stopping me getting a set of plates knocked up for it (under £20) and going round all the local garages, filling it up with fuel and driving off without paying. Who's door do you think the police will be knocking on?

 

 

I'm afraid I can't help you with editing a picture on pepipoo. I'm not a member of that site and have no idea how their forum works. It's probably the same as this one though in as much as you only get a certain amount of time to edit a post before that function is locked out.

 

 

However, did you upload the images to that site directly, or do you have them hosted elsewhere? If they're hosted elsewhere, you could just edit that picture and then it will automatically change it on pepipoo as well :thumb:

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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I’m sorry, I don’t see how you can possibly contest that. They’ve literally painted the words “No Entry” in six foot tall letters on the road. Get it paid and over and done with.

My views are my own and are not representative of any organisation. if you've found my post helpful please click on the star below.

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Turns out that our car's brake hose pipe was cut last night...is there any way someone could have made the redacted address visible on the pepipoo website?!

Someone on pepipoo has said there is a major flaw with the pcn so I'm hoping we can get off on a technicality. I'm on maternity leave on basically zero pay so it would be good if the money could be spent elsewhere!

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yes you left the QR code box showing.

that with a simply app can be read by any smartphone or camera on a pc

gives your full name and address

 

ask them to take the pix down

I've done them here already

read upload

ONE multipage PDF please

tells you how to do it

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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It's probably just an unlucky coincidence, unless you live quite close to that road.

 

Someone else who lives in the area could have seen your vehicle registration, and it's not at all hard to find out what car that's attached to. Anything is possible, but as I said, probably just an unlucky coincidence.

 

 

I'm not sure what technicality there is on that PCN I'm afraid. I'm not 100& on council PCN's but there's nothing that's jumping out at me.

 

 

 

yes you left the QR code box showing.

that with a simply app can be read by any smartphone or camera on a pc

gives your full name and address

 

Sorry dx, it doesn't. It links to a reference number that would only be any use the the issuing authority (if at all). No addresses are linked.

Please note that my posts are my opinion only and should not be taken as any kind of legal advice.
In fact, they're probably just waffling and can be quite safely and completely ignored as you wish.

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Thanks for your replies. I have added a photo of the brake hose pipe on the pepipoo site if you want to take a look. It's a bit scary if someone has deliberately cut it :(

 

Does anyone know what the "date of service of the notice" is?

Is it the date on which I received the PCN? Thanks

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When you got the ntk

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

What do people think of the following draft informal representations?

 

I wish to make the following informal representations against the PCN that I received on 21 June 2018.

 

1) There was no contravention of a prescribed order.

 

The PCN states as follows:

 

If neither payment nor representations have been received before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice, a Charge Certificate may be sent to the keeper which increases the amount of the full penalty charge by a further 50% to £195.00. If the Charge Certificate is not paid, the increased amount will be registered as a debt at the Traffic Enforcement (Bulk) Centre and a warrant may be issued for Civil Enforcement Agents to recover.

 

However, the above is legally incorrect.

I believe that a charge certificate cannot be sent to me before the end of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN (rather than from the date of the notice).

 

The relevant law is under Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 (the “2003 Act”), including more specifically paragraph 5(1) and 5(2) which state that a charge certificate can be served if the PCN is not paid and no representations have been made before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with “the date on which the penalty charge notice is served” (para 5(2)(a)).

 

Your legally incorrect wording means that you might send out a charge certificate to me after 10 July 2018 (this is 28 days from the date of the notice) whereas you are not allowed to send out a charge certificate to me until after 18 July 2018 (this is 28 days from the date of service of the notice

– I received it on 21 June 2018).

 

This is crucial because I am legally allowed to make representations until the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice (paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 1 to the 2003 Act).

 

However, I would be at risk of receiving a charge certificate before I had had the chance to submit my representations – for example, if I was going to submit my formal representations on 17 July 2018 (which would be within the 28 day period from the date of service which was 21 June 2018), by this time I might well have received a charge certificate as according to you, you can serve it after 10 July 2018 (which is wrong as mentioned above).

 

In addition, your legally incorrect wording means that I am losing out on 8 days in which I could have spent writing and submitting my formal representations as, in light of the illegal wording, I would have to submit my representations by 10 July instead of 18 July to avoid the possible charge certificate being incorrectly (prematurely) sent out to me.

 

Given that I am dyslexic, this policy puts me at a particular disadvantage compared with those who are non-dyslexic as I require additional time to read and digest what I am reading.

 

Therefore, the council is also in breach of section 19 of the Equality Act 2010 (indirect disability discrimination) in applying this illegal policy of sending out a charge certificate too early and thereby shortening the time within which I can make representations.

 

Furthermore, given that I only received the PCN on 21 June 2018, but I still only have 14 days from the date of the notice within which to submit informal representations, this has only left me with 6 days in which to read and compile my informal grounds of appeal rather than closer to 14 days had the PCN been sent out after it had been produced.

 

Again, the policy of delaying the sending out of the PCN is indirectly discriminatory under section 19 of the Equality Act 2010 for the same reasons as stated above. Please could you confirm the date on which the notice was sent out and why you waited potentially 7 days before sending the notice first class (assuming it was sent on 20 June 2018).

 

2) Other compelling reasons

 

I would add that this is the first PCN I have received in this council’s area and, at the time, I was dropping a colleague home from work, which I was doing as a favour.

 

In light of the above, I trust that the PCN will be cancelled.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

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OK thanks, is the Notice to Keeper the same as the actual PCN? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

 

No its me being dumb! Its a council pcn...opps

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Hello

The deadline for the reduced fee is tomorrow. Has anyone got any thoughts? I thought it was the case that the council should respond to all points made in our representations rather than giving a generic rejection?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Oodly

 

 

Hello all again

 

We've finally heard back from the council...with a rejection. Please see the photos on the pepipoo website and any comments/thoughts would be much appreciated.

 

Many thanks

oodly

 

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=121113&st=0&gopid=1407975entry1407975

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  • 3 months later...
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